Interview with Chris Okotie about 2011 election and other issues

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Read Time:10 Minute, 29 Second

In the last general elections, in which he contested for president, his party had 74,059 votes according to INEC. But Chris Okotie, religious leader and politician, doubts this figure, and says he has plans to ensure that the next election is different. He talks on this; his aspirations; and other issues.

Excerpts:

Why God would allow the (electoral) crises to persist

Because there is a word in the scripture that is called long suffering, and he delays justice because of the poor that will suffer. If we break into hostilities, it is these rich men that will first abscond. So many times, the Lord is merciful because of we, the people; not because he wants to perpetuate those people in power, but because he is careful.

The prophecy concerning the PDP has come forth and they are going to fight each other and destroy each other because that is how evil is terminated. We can’t fight them. They are too strong for us. So they must fight each other.

His previous assertions that he would president in 2003 and 2007

That is what I’m saying, that my time will come. I already quoted Abraham Lincoln in the sense that I am so sure that it is a divine mandate. All I have to do is wait for the right time and not compromise my philosophy or compromise my faith and join a conglomerate of men and women who call themselves political parties, whereas they are just a conscription of men and women of anti-theatrical philosophies who have no ideological connectivity and their only common denominator is their desire to annex wealth.

Because I believe in a Nigeria where truth reigns; a fresh Nigeria which our party symbolises in F-Faith, R-Responsibility, E-Equality, S-Security and H-Hope. This is the philosophy upon which I have erected the citadel of my confidence because I believe only a fresh Nigerian can salvage this nation. All this cosmetic and superficial activity that are going on by the ruling party is a journey in futility. This will also drift us back to square one, which we have always been.

How soon the drift will happen

If we perpetuate a PDP government, which I think Nigeria cannot afford, we will be back to square one and that is a recipe for extinction. The party is incapacitated, ab initio. But the party has been ruling for 12 years. It was necessary for Nigerians to reach a point of self-examination and re-assessment of this slavery.

Our leaders have betrayed us on a large scale and it takes a while to come to that realisation, but global events, as seen in the angry youth protest in Abuja,means Nigerians are recognising what they have to do without anybody galvanising them. It is an evolution. Mao Tse Tung once said if people no longer fear your power, it is because another power is on its way and that is what we are seeing here. I believe with all my heart that we are seeing the last vestiges of this oppressive leadership of the PDP.

I believe our people are coming to a place where they are willing to make the necessary sacrifice to emancipate themselves, and that the money politics that the PDP has played for so many years is gradually frittering out and there is going to be an implosion within the party that will totally fragment it to the extent that it will be totally powerless.

His silence when activists were protesting for rule of law

I do not know the kind of newspapers you read, but I made my opinion known and at some point in time, I called for an interim government to be installed so that the entire malady that surrounded the executive could be cleared and we will move on.

The nation was inundated by the soap opera that transpired with incapacitation of late President Yar’Adua, and even though we had urged the PDP to declare his whereabouts and be transparent, nobody paid attention and we did not want to sound insensitive with the fact that the president is incapacitated and be more interested in politics. So, the sentiment of it all was something that PDP capitalised on. But it was not because we were not quick to articulate our views on the impact.

How he intends to tackle problems such as corruption, unemployment, and power

Let me put this in proper context; campaigns have not begun. What I just did was to articulate my desire to run for the office. We are not supposed to engage in any campaign until INEC says so. I can only give you observations that I have made concerning the things that I have seen in the country from a very constructive view-point. I believe the reason why corruption has been able to flourish is because there is an enabling environment.

If you want to incapacitate those who participate in corruption, you will have to change the environment, not just engender punitive measures. It has to be juxtaposed with moral instruction for there to be meaningful change. For instance if you take a fish out of water, it cannot function; if you take an evil man into heaven, he cannot function, so there are certain mechanisms in government that make it possible for this charlatans to operate and until we dismantle this mechanism, corruption will (only) at best be tackled on the punitive level which is where you have the EFCC and all of those things. The 10 commandments didn’t even save Israel, not to talk about EFCC saving Nigeria.

We also need to understand that there is cooperation between these charlatans and those who are in the supervisory role. This is a major characteristic of the PDP as seen in the House of Representatives, where the speaker was indicted some months ago and we are right back at it. That is why I respect the former President, Olusegun Obasanjo, because he was bold enough to address that. When I become president, we will change the environment. If you go back a few years when Yar’Adua was installed as head of state, because they had nothing to offer, they came with a nominal seven point agenda with nothing on ground to corroborate the position.

The laws of dialectical materialism by Karl Marx, which involve having a concept called the thesis, you find a concept that works against the thesis called the anti-thesis, then both of them synthesize together to form what is called synthesis which can be translated into chaos and this what PDP does. They create chaos, then they get a group within the party to oppose the chaos and then they resolve the problems within the two groups and synthesize the third position, which is where we are headed in the first place.

So they create a problem and get a group of people to fight it, like when they created the Yar’Adua problem. They create that chaos and buy time using the diversionary tactics that makes people then think; oh this is an emergency situation whilst they have nothing to offer. Government is not transparent in this country and they have refused to give room to the fourth estate (journalism) to do what they are mentally meant to do.

God and the presidential system

The whole concept of the presidential system comes from the bible, because God is our law-giver; that is how you get the legislature; God is our judge, so you have the judiciary; God is our king, you have the executive. That is how it was patterned and it was devised as a concept of government. We need a fourth concept that will articulate the plans on the purpose of the government to the people.

That is how the press came about. The new Nigeria of our dreams that will soon transpire must be a government of integrity. It must understand that Nigeria is no longer a pariah nation, that we live in a millennium where the quest for innovation knows no frontiers and that we are no longer isolated in some dark continent. So, a Chris Okotie government will re-establish government in its true definition, where the people are a part of it and know what is going on.

His ability to build a structure that could win elections

If you take the government of this nation in tandem, maybe from the civil war, you will discover that there has always being a divine intervention at some point and recent events corroborate my saying.

Look at former president, Olusegun Obasanjo, who was out of government, incarcerated for a phantom coup, from where he became the president of Nigeria. He was not involved in any politics at that time, in terms of democratic process, but he became the head of state. The late Yar’Adua, relatively unknown with little or no quality pedigree more or less, or his vice, Goodluck Jonathan, probably known regionally, not at on the national platform but today he is our President, because there is a divine intervention in the affairs of this country. That is why it imperative for a Chris Okotie to pontificate on the affairs of this country that identifies him as a credible aspirant for that office; so that when the opportunity presents itself, it will be easy to say this is the man.

Possibilities of merger with other political parties

Talks have already commenced and, in due time, we will unveil our strategy. The talks have always been on since as far back as the last two elections that I contested, where some political parties approached me because of my credibility. But I will not compromise my sense of purpose to give Nigerians the right leadership by jumping at people who do not share the same values as FRESH. Adherence to principles invokes respect, as all kind of overtures have come from different political parties with most of them having leaders who do not have the kind of intellectual capacity that is necessary for the kind of government they are trying to put in place. But I have stayed with my principle. I believe, just like Abraham Lincoln said, “I will study and wait.”

What happens to his church if he becomes president

It will be bigger. When God was sending Jesus to the world, he wanted to make him the political leader of the world, not the spiritual leader. But for him to be the political leader, he had to take the sins of the world through his death. He will return as the governor, as stated in the bible, that will rule with the rod, as a political leader. By this procedure, God patterned Jesus to be a secular leader like Melchizedek during the time of Abraham, so that Jesus can become both a spiritual leader and a political leader. So, somebody like me, I am already a spiritual leader and I will be a political leader because earth was given to man to rule. Only a righteous government can exalt a nation.

Ethnicity and zoning formula in Nigerian political parties

We have gone beyond that. Zoning is a PDP mechanism and anybody clamouring for these issues cannot adduce evidence to substantiate that position. The best election in this country was won by a Muslim-Muslim ticket, that everyone across the nation voted for. Such clamour is a narrow perspective of politicians who are unable by any sweat of their imagination to acquire political recognition, and so they think the only way they can is to polarize the polity along religious and ethnic divide.

The process of galvanising ethnicity in political parties is anachronistic, because the experience we have disproves that philosophy. What Nigerians are looking for today is a credible candidate, irrespective of where he/she is from, because both the northerners and southerners will tell you that their leaders have betrayed them. Zoning is the business of the PDP, a gargantuan monstrosity, and PDP is not Nigeria. I will run for the office of the president, irrespective of the fact that Mr. Jonathan is also from the south.

The experience of his divorce and second marriage

Entering the covenant of marriage is the highest possible level of spiritual responsibility anybody can assume, because it authenticates the mystery of the God head. I have found myself in a better place of understanding which gives a conscious of responsibility for this life

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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Chris Okotie sham interview against T.B Joshua

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Read Time:21 Minute, 39 Second

(Archive CWN)In this interview, Pastor Christopher Okotie , the one time  self-acclaimed God appointed Nigerian president and a pastor of Household of God, Oregun Lagos, speaks on the invitation by the then Lagos State Police Commissioner, Mike Okiro on his press war with T.B. Joshua of Synagogue Church of all Nations and Pastor Chris Oyakhilome of Christ Embassy.  At the end of the interview, you might discover that Chris Okotie himself is less a pastor than he claims.

Q: Let us start with the most recent development. You were invited to the office of the Lagos State Police Commissioner. Can you tell us what transpired there?

A: The commissioner wanted to make sure that there was no breakdown of law and order in Lagos State. He was concerned about the situation of things between Joshua, Oyakhilome and me in terms of all the things he had read in the papers, the claims and counter­claims of different ministers and because of the volatile nature of religious crisis in the country. He called us and he talked to us based on that. He was not getting into the petition that I wrote to the Inspector General of Police, I-G. He just wanted to say that if there was any problem between us, we could discuss it and we did. There was first a roll-call and we discovered that Chris Oyakhilome was not there. And I told them that I wasn’t surprised because he had rather been very evasive recently. 

Q: Could you tell us what was really discussed at the meeting?

A: Yes, the first to speak was Joshua who was there with about five of his deputies. He got up and said he did not want any problems and that he was not upset with me. He said I am his brother that he loved me dearly and so on and he sat down. I got up and said I do not want to be hypocritical because the commissioner of police had good intentions and we could not be there to trivialise it, to make it look as if there is no problem when there is one and it is fundamental. The man had threatened my life.  He had come to me a few nights after I had published what transpired between him and Oyakhilome. He came about 3 a.m in the morning but the Spirit of God woke me up. In my bedroom there is a door facing my bed – I live alone. As 1 looked towards the door, Joshua walked into my bedroom. I said this in his presence there at the police station because I got the opportunity to talk to him face to face.  He walked right into my bedroom, he wore a caftan and I recognised him immediately he came in and I was just watching what he was going to do when suddenly there was an explosion from the left side of my bed, just by my wardrobe and a fire came from my side and lifted him off the ground and threw him back at the door. He fell down and was there stupefied. He sat down there for about half an hour, he didn’t say a word to me neither I to him. When the daze cleared, he got up, took two steps towards me, stretched his neck to look at me, turned around and walked out. If you are not a spiritual person you won’t understand what happened.  That phenomenon is possible, it is called a Familiar Spirit, and he is able to do that. Members of his church will tell you that he appears to them at night. At the police station, I recounted the experience and I said to his face that he is evil because he had come to me at night to hurt me and he was sitting down there, telling people that there is no problem. It is a lie and he is a hypocrite.  I just wanted to be down-to-earth about this thing. So I said to him, ‘Joshua, several times have I read your interviews in the paper and there you say that you don’t believe that it was me saying those things and I want you to know that I was the one saying them and I want to repeat them in your presence. You are a practitioner of Shamanism, I told Oyakhilome that you are involved in Docetic Gnosticism and he didn’t listen to me because of the connection you people have, and everything I said about you is correct.  I told the police that Joshua is a threat to national security. And that the only way the matter could be resolved is for him to pick up his magic box and leave the town. I have to be very direct. In fact, I was speaking to him very directly that the C­P had to tell me to stop addressing Joshua and rather speak to him (Okiro) directly instead, so that it won’t sound like a confrontation.  But I was glad I had that opportunity to talk to him face to face because this demystifies his personality. Joshua is nothing, just a man and the power he has is given to him by spiritual entities and we are connected to the highest spiritual entity which is the Lord Jesus Christ. I wanted to make that abundantly clear to all the people present there. He got up and he said ‘ Pastor Chris is judging me but I love him dearly, he is my brother, he is a father in the faith and all that stuff.  He said he wanted to shake hands and forget and I said never, we came from two different realms. The God that you are calling is not the God that I know. The gospel you teach is an alien gospel. The Jesus you are calling is an alien Jesus. There is no connection between you and I to warrant a handshake. And I explained to the C-P that it was not as if I am being difficult or trying to be disrespectful but these things are stated in the scriptures. I have studied the Bible for over 14 years and I know what I am saying. Joshua is not qualified to talk about Jesus Christ and the Bible. The Bible is also very clear when it said that I should have nothing to do with a person like Joshua.  I said, ‘you all in this place knew me. I grew up in the presence of all of you. You know my past but do you know this man?’ No one knows his past. All the stories he tells are not verifiable. Joshua claimed that his birth was prophesied, and that he quoted from the scriptures at a very tender age before knowing the Bible. And the only way that can happen is by spiritual impartation. So, he is claiming equality with Jesus Christ. There is no way we are going to sit back and allow him to carry on. We don’t want what he is doing to this country. He is more dangerous than Abacha was.

Q: But are you not judging Joshua, because the Holy Book says judge not?

A: There are too many ignorant people. When Jesus said judge not, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Why did he call the Jews children of the devil? People who are in a covenant relationship with God. He said, no, your covenant with God do not subsist because you are satanic at heart. You are thus children of Satan. I pointed this out to the C-P. When Paul had problems in Jerusalem, he appealed to Caesar and I appealed to the C-P because he represents the Caesar of our time and there is precedence in the Bible. 

Q: At what point do you think that Joshua could be a threat to churches and even to Nigeria?

A: We have been observing Joshua for many years in the country. As I told the C-P, he has been around for about 10 years. But we were of the impression that the church recognises that he was a charlatan and that the people who were going to him were the people who had made up their minds that they wanted to be involved with him. We refrained from speaking because the Bible says there is a time to speak to a scorner.  The only time he became a threat was the time when Oyakhilome began to make his relationship with him public. People need to clearly understand that Oyakhilome is the epitome of what is called Christian deception. The story he is telling you that he just met Joshua not so long ago even by the logic is faulty. It is not possible to stake your whole ministry and your relationship with the Christian body of the whole country over a stranger you just met not so long ago. It is because he is involved with him spiritually and materially. The two have been involved in all kinds of money laundering activities. That is where he gets the money to do all he does. It is not the ministry because there is nothing he has achieved in Christian ministry in this country. It was at that point when Oyakhilome came out to validate the ministry of Joshua, that it became necessary to alert the nation that this man is a potential danger.      

Q: Is it true that this conflict between you and Oyakhilome goes beyond Joshua? There is this story that there is a tussle over a plot of land and that envy is involved because he performs miracles and you don’t.

A: There is something called paralogism, that is, the inability to take a logical conclusion from the beginning to the end in an argument, thus it doesn’t make any sense. I have clearly stated from the beginning of our ministry that I don’t believe in the concept of multiple churches. Anyone who has listened to me on television will know that when it comes to preaching the Word of God, Oyakhilome is a non-starter. And I say it squarely within the confines of conventional propriety. If he says he has a gift in the realm of miracle, I am not going to contest that because the word of God clearly tells us that we all have different offices. I am a pastor, I teach the Bible. I don’t go on crusades. There is no way I’ll envy a man who is doing the job that I cannot do and which I am not called to do.  The Bible is clear about it; you can’t operate in an office except it is given to you. Look at his church. He does not have more than six plots and you expect me to be envious of him when I have about 10 acres here. If Oyakhilome and I had a problem, why would I open my premises for him to use? Oyakhilome called me a couple of months ago and I thanked God for that. He asked me to grant him access to his church for renovation. And I instructed the people to allow him. It was only after I wrote to him to warn him to stay away from Joshua and he refused that I told my people to seal off the place.  It is on record that people have asked me to open other branches of my church in Lagos and I said no. If I want to open churches because of the crowd that he is talking about I would have done so. I am a better pastor than he is. He calls himself a pastor while in fact, he is an evangelist. A pastor is the one who teaches the Word of God and he can’t teach it.  Last year, he wrote to me a letter when he saw our GRACE NIGHT saying that he heard things about Jesus that he had never heard before. He can’t deny it. That was how he had the confidence to request that I bring down my fence for him to renovate his church. The truth of the matter is that his friends have asked him why he was putting them through this shame when all he needed do was to have come out to say, ‘Look, I am sorry that Joshua and I have been friends. I see him as a minister, maybe there are things that I don’t know about him that you people know. But please let us talk about it.’ He didn’t do that, rather, he became impertinent and gave the impression that we are all against him while the fact is that he is the one against himself. 

Q: Going back to Joshua; you accused him of practising Shamanism, etc. How did you know that?

A: You see, that is my job. I have studied the book, I am glad to hear when Oyakhilome came on the television that nobody laid hands on him. This means that he was not properly instructed. The same thing goes for Joshua. The two of them didn’t study the Bible formally. They just picked up the Bible, felt the call of God in their lives and went ahead to set up their ministries. The Bible is very clear. 1st, 2nd and 3rd John dealt with Docetic Gnosticism. Note that the Bible was written in the Greek language. That word Docetic is from a man called Cerentus in the early church. Books dealing with the church history have this. Cerentus was later to propound what is to be called the Cerenten heresy. He went around telling people at that time that it is true that Jesus Christ came but that the Christ is a consciousness that came at any time in a generation. That is, Jesus is not the only of His kind.  It was a very serious problem for the church in Jerusalem. That was why John wrote to the church in Ephesus that anybody who brings that concept is the Antichrist. Christ, he said, had come in the flesh and not an apparition as Cerentus said. Anyone who believes in that philosophy is preaching Docetism which means that Christ is an apparition. It is because the man did not study his Bible, this accounts for why he was on the television saying he doesn’t know the source of my knowledge.  Joshua is preaching Docetism. Joshua took the name of Jesus, Joshua is Jesus in Hebrew name. Joshua calls himself Emmanuel, that is, ‘God with us.’ That was what the scriptures said of Jesus who was going to come, that when he comes, he will be Emmanuel; God with us. Joshua now wants to claim that he is another Jesus, he wants to prove that, by asking his people to say ‘Emmanuel’, pointing to him before giving testimony, meaning in other words, that Joshua is the God with us. But people do not know this because there are too many ignorant people in the body.  They do not study the book therefore they do not know what is going on. So, I told Oyakhilome that you could have been in big business with Joshua, but you can’t do that now because the man is calling himself God more or less. And he speaks about the finger of God. This is in the Book of Exodus. But Oyakhilome and Joshua are involved in big business and it would be uncovered very soon as long as Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Q: There is this accusation that you use extra-biblical text, that you derive all these big words from those apocryphal books.

A: That is not true; they have seen a man who has spent time studying. In the past, people did not take the word of God seriously. They will just pick a verse and try to interpret it. But when I got born again, I had an encounter with Jesus Christ at the peak of my singing career and when I decided I was going to follow Jesus, I made up my mind I was going to give God more than my best and so I took the time to go back and read up the material available. I studied the Bible because the Bible commanded that we should study the word of God to show ourselves as workmen that are not ashamed but rightly interpreting the word of truth.  If you want to convey the word of God you have to take time to study the word, that is why our programme on television is called’ Apocalypse,’ that is the first word in the Book of Revelation. It means the unveiling, the revelation. God knew that the Bible would be written in English but then he couldn’t have waited for it. But he chose the Greek language because it is much better, grammatically, in its presentation. And it is very concise. What you would say in eight sentences in English, a grammatical expression says it all in Greek. It is the job of a lecturer that lectures in a university to do the research, so also it is for the preacher. Oyakhilome said the reason why I know all these was because I was reading occultic books. It is such a manifestation of abysmal ignorance. It is all in the Bible. 

Q: In the first letter you accused Joshua that he wanted to invade your church on Christmas day and assassinate you and even use blackmail. Can you prove those things and how did you know.

A: The police are investigating the matter right now and we have the information that Joshua is very confused about how we got the information. It is like we already knew everything he is planning to do. The police will tell Nigerians how we got the information and what is exactly going on. 

Q: Some people say that this conflict is dragging too long. That only God can judge. Joshua even quoted the speech of Gamaliel in the Bible. Some say you should stop quarreling on the pages of newspapers.

A: The people who say that have neither read the Bible nor are they spiritually informed. I told the C-P that Joshua goes around saying that Gamaliel in the Bible stated that if the work that is being done by the disciples is of God, then no man should try to stop them, lest they seem to be fighting with God and that if it is not of God it will eventually peter out. Gamaliel made that statement but it is not a statement of fact. Experience has shown that if you don’t fight evil, it will destroy you. If you allow evil to thrive, it has the capacity to swallow up good. Gamaliel’s statement was not inspired by God. He just spoke out of sentimental reason to let the disciples go.  The Bible is very clear concerning people like Joshua. It says in the book of Timothy in the first chapter, that their mouth should be stopped. When Jude wrote about them, he used some of the most offensive diatribes that you can ever imagine. These are not small matters. If you don’t destroy these people, they will turn into a canker that will destroy the society. It must be clearly understood that I am fighting as a man of God. I am not fighting Oyakhilome, I am not fighting Joshua.  I have a responsibility as a Christian to tell them what is going on just as President Olusegun Obasanjo is fighting corruption at his own level. There is a greater corruption in the spirit realm that is worse than you taking bribe or embezzling government fund. This is talking about eternal damnation that will destroy the spirit, soul and body; and the consequences are eternal. We have a greater responsibility to warn our people. We are dealing with men working under mysticism. 

Q: Many have testified to going to Joshua and getting healed. Even foreigners and presidents of nations have testified to Joshua’s ability to heal. Could that be a Satan-influenced healing, because many popular members of our society, mostly sportsmen and politicians have testified to Joshua’s healing powers. Can there be satanic healings. If there are, how do they happen?

A: In the book of Acts there is a story when Paul and Silas were ministering to some women. There was a young lady there crying out after them saying to the people “These are the men who come from God to show us the way to the Lord.” The woman was pointing at Paul saying to the people if you want to know the real gospel, listen to them. The Bible says she did that for three days. At a point Paul got upset and spoke to the spirit inside her to come out.

It is called the spirit of divination. Yet in its manifestation that spirit was corroborating the ministry of Paul and Silas because she was saying these men are genuine. But the Bible tells us he commanded the spirit in that woman to come out, because it is a foul spirit.  What you have in the spirit of the devil are counterfeits. If you have the spirit of healing from God, you have the spirit of healing from the devil. And the spirit of the devil is what Martin Luther called the’ Ape of God’ It imitates God. There are circum­stances that Satan set up by himself. He is clever, you need to understand that. Satan has this power to cause a sickness and when he places such illness in a man and that man wants to be healed, he will send him to his own man like Joshua. And Joshua will speak to that illness because it was generated from the kingdom of darkness and it will tell it to go. If you are not aware of these things, you will never know that Joshua is not a man of God.  I explained in the church that the casting out of devil that Joshua does is called occult pacifism.

That is, Satan does not cast out Satan; he pacifies the demon in such persons. He appeals to them to remain dormant and they remain so. There is an appearance as if the person afflicted is healed but in the actual fact, the demon causing the illness was just lying dormant. But if you take that person to a Bible preaching church, you will see the re-emergence of such a demon in the person. When Joshua stretches his finger the way he does when healing, it is the “finger of God”. It is used to communicate with the spirit. It is an occult term. Some of the people that you say are popular this, popular that, there are many people like Joshua who will show you a case of real healing because they have been planted there by Satan. That is Shamanism. A Shaman is a magician but the difference is that he uses his magic in a healing way in a religious environment. He comes to us like a priest whereas underneath he is a magician.  “… When Joshua stretches his finger the way he does when healing, it is the “finger of God”. It is used to communicate with the spirit. It is an occult term. Some of the people that you say are popular this, popular that, there are many people like Joshua who will show you a case of real healing because they have been planted there by Satan. That is Shamanism…”     

Q: In the Bible, Jesus commanded evil spirits to come out. In the case of Joshua cant you pray and command the evil spirit in him to come out, instead of engaging in the verbal warfare that some church leaders have described as embarrassing to the church?

A: They are entitled to their opinion and I am not sure they are aware of what danger Joshua is posing to Christendom. You know Joshua is very feared by a lot of people. Because they don’t want to come against him, they make a lot of diplomatic statements that would appear that they are neither here nor there but I don’t have time for that. The Bible says, ‘You the strong ones, you are strong and have overcome the evil one’. There is something about youth that the Lord uses to confront evil. It was a young boy David that God used to confront Goliath. 

Q: Can’t you cast out the devil out of Joshua?

A: We cannot do that. Let me tell you why that is different. In the case of the lady in the book of Acts, she was just a medium. She had a master who profits from her divination powers. We are dealing with a man who has a will, who has invited demons to live with him, to enable him achieve his own purpose not somebody who is being oppressed like that lady.  We are talking about a man who has consciously accepted the power of Satan in order to work with: the devil. If you go to him and say you demons come out, you are fighting against his will and God doesn’t do that. The only people who are ever delivered or who are ever saved are the people who desire. Jesus said whosoever willeth let him come to me. But he will never come and force you. The day Joshua says ‘I am tired of the devil, I am fed up,’ we can help him.

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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Chris Okotie sham interview against T.B Joshua

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Read Time:21 Minute, 39 Second

(Archive CWN)In this interview, Pastor Christopher Okotie , the one time  self-acclaimed God appointed Nigerian president and a pastor of Household of God, Oregun Lagos, speaks on the invitation by the then Lagos State Police Commissioner, Mike Okiro on his press war with T.B. Joshua of Synagogue Church of all Nations and Pastor Chris Oyakhilome of Christ Embassy.  At the end of the interview, you might discover that Chris Okotie himself is less a pastor than he claims.

Q: Let us start with the most recent development. You were invited to the office of the Lagos State Police Commissioner. Can you tell us what transpired there?

A: The commissioner wanted to make sure that there was no breakdown of law and order in Lagos State. He was concerned about the situation of things between Joshua, Oyakhilome and me in terms of all the things he had read in the papers, the claims and counter­claims of different ministers and because of the volatile nature of religious crisis in the country. He called us and he talked to us based on that. He was not getting into the petition that I wrote to the Inspector General of Police, I-G. He just wanted to say that if there was any problem between us, we could discuss it and we did. There was first a roll-call and we discovered that Chris Oyakhilome was not there. And I told them that I wasn’t surprised because he had rather been very evasive recently. 

Q: Could you tell us what was really discussed at the meeting?

A: Yes, the first to speak was Joshua who was there with about five of his deputies. He got up and said he did not want any problems and that he was not upset with me. He said I am his brother that he loved me dearly and so on and he sat down. I got up and said I do not want to be hypocritical because the commissioner of police had good intentions and we could not be there to trivialise it, to make it look as if there is no problem when there is one and it is fundamental. The man had threatened my life.  He had come to me a few nights after I had published what transpired between him and Oyakhilome. He came about 3 a.m in the morning but the Spirit of God woke me up. In my bedroom there is a door facing my bed – I live alone. As 1 looked towards the door, Joshua walked into my bedroom. I said this in his presence there at the police station because I got the opportunity to talk to him face to face.  He walked right into my bedroom, he wore a caftan and I recognised him immediately he came in and I was just watching what he was going to do when suddenly there was an explosion from the left side of my bed, just by my wardrobe and a fire came from my side and lifted him off the ground and threw him back at the door. He fell down and was there stupefied. He sat down there for about half an hour, he didn’t say a word to me neither I to him. When the daze cleared, he got up, took two steps towards me, stretched his neck to look at me, turned around and walked out. If you are not a spiritual person you won’t understand what happened.  That phenomenon is possible, it is called a Familiar Spirit, and he is able to do that. Members of his church will tell you that he appears to them at night. At the police station, I recounted the experience and I said to his face that he is evil because he had come to me at night to hurt me and he was sitting down there, telling people that there is no problem. It is a lie and he is a hypocrite.  I just wanted to be down-to-earth about this thing. So I said to him, ‘Joshua, several times have I read your interviews in the paper and there you say that you don’t believe that it was me saying those things and I want you to know that I was the one saying them and I want to repeat them in your presence. You are a practitioner of Shamanism, I told Oyakhilome that you are involved in Docetic Gnosticism and he didn’t listen to me because of the connection you people have, and everything I said about you is correct.  I told the police that Joshua is a threat to national security. And that the only way the matter could be resolved is for him to pick up his magic box and leave the town. I have to be very direct. In fact, I was speaking to him very directly that the C­P had to tell me to stop addressing Joshua and rather speak to him (Okiro) directly instead, so that it won’t sound like a confrontation.  But I was glad I had that opportunity to talk to him face to face because this demystifies his personality. Joshua is nothing, just a man and the power he has is given to him by spiritual entities and we are connected to the highest spiritual entity which is the Lord Jesus Christ. I wanted to make that abundantly clear to all the people present there. He got up and he said ‘ Pastor Chris is judging me but I love him dearly, he is my brother, he is a father in the faith and all that stuff.  He said he wanted to shake hands and forget and I said never, we came from two different realms. The God that you are calling is not the God that I know. The gospel you teach is an alien gospel. The Jesus you are calling is an alien Jesus. There is no connection between you and I to warrant a handshake. And I explained to the C-P that it was not as if I am being difficult or trying to be disrespectful but these things are stated in the scriptures. I have studied the Bible for over 14 years and I know what I am saying. Joshua is not qualified to talk about Jesus Christ and the Bible. The Bible is also very clear when it said that I should have nothing to do with a person like Joshua.  I said, ‘you all in this place knew me. I grew up in the presence of all of you. You know my past but do you know this man?’ No one knows his past. All the stories he tells are not verifiable. Joshua claimed that his birth was prophesied, and that he quoted from the scriptures at a very tender age before knowing the Bible. And the only way that can happen is by spiritual impartation. So, he is claiming equality with Jesus Christ. There is no way we are going to sit back and allow him to carry on. We don’t want what he is doing to this country. He is more dangerous than Abacha was.

Q: But are you not judging Joshua, because the Holy Book says judge not?

A: There are too many ignorant people. When Jesus said judge not, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Why did he call the Jews children of the devil? People who are in a covenant relationship with God. He said, no, your covenant with God do not subsist because you are satanic at heart. You are thus children of Satan. I pointed this out to the C-P. When Paul had problems in Jerusalem, he appealed to Caesar and I appealed to the C-P because he represents the Caesar of our time and there is precedence in the Bible. 

Q: At what point do you think that Joshua could be a threat to churches and even to Nigeria?

A: We have been observing Joshua for many years in the country. As I told the C-P, he has been around for about 10 years. But we were of the impression that the church recognises that he was a charlatan and that the people who were going to him were the people who had made up their minds that they wanted to be involved with him. We refrained from speaking because the Bible says there is a time to speak to a scorner.  The only time he became a threat was the time when Oyakhilome began to make his relationship with him public. People need to clearly understand that Oyakhilome is the epitome of what is called Christian deception. The story he is telling you that he just met Joshua not so long ago even by the logic is faulty. It is not possible to stake your whole ministry and your relationship with the Christian body of the whole country over a stranger you just met not so long ago. It is because he is involved with him spiritually and materially. The two have been involved in all kinds of money laundering activities. That is where he gets the money to do all he does. It is not the ministry because there is nothing he has achieved in Christian ministry in this country. It was at that point when Oyakhilome came out to validate the ministry of Joshua, that it became necessary to alert the nation that this man is a potential danger.      

Q: Is it true that this conflict between you and Oyakhilome goes beyond Joshua? There is this story that there is a tussle over a plot of land and that envy is involved because he performs miracles and you don’t.

A: There is something called paralogism, that is, the inability to take a logical conclusion from the beginning to the end in an argument, thus it doesn’t make any sense. I have clearly stated from the beginning of our ministry that I don’t believe in the concept of multiple churches. Anyone who has listened to me on television will know that when it comes to preaching the Word of God, Oyakhilome is a non-starter. And I say it squarely within the confines of conventional propriety. If he says he has a gift in the realm of miracle, I am not going to contest that because the word of God clearly tells us that we all have different offices. I am a pastor, I teach the Bible. I don’t go on crusades. There is no way I’ll envy a man who is doing the job that I cannot do and which I am not called to do.  The Bible is clear about it; you can’t operate in an office except it is given to you. Look at his church. He does not have more than six plots and you expect me to be envious of him when I have about 10 acres here. If Oyakhilome and I had a problem, why would I open my premises for him to use? Oyakhilome called me a couple of months ago and I thanked God for that. He asked me to grant him access to his church for renovation. And I instructed the people to allow him. It was only after I wrote to him to warn him to stay away from Joshua and he refused that I told my people to seal off the place.  It is on record that people have asked me to open other branches of my church in Lagos and I said no. If I want to open churches because of the crowd that he is talking about I would have done so. I am a better pastor than he is. He calls himself a pastor while in fact, he is an evangelist. A pastor is the one who teaches the Word of God and he can’t teach it.  Last year, he wrote to me a letter when he saw our GRACE NIGHT saying that he heard things about Jesus that he had never heard before. He can’t deny it. That was how he had the confidence to request that I bring down my fence for him to renovate his church. The truth of the matter is that his friends have asked him why he was putting them through this shame when all he needed do was to have come out to say, ‘Look, I am sorry that Joshua and I have been friends. I see him as a minister, maybe there are things that I don’t know about him that you people know. But please let us talk about it.’ He didn’t do that, rather, he became impertinent and gave the impression that we are all against him while the fact is that he is the one against himself. 

Q: Going back to Joshua; you accused him of practising Shamanism, etc. How did you know that?

A: You see, that is my job. I have studied the book, I am glad to hear when Oyakhilome came on the television that nobody laid hands on him. This means that he was not properly instructed. The same thing goes for Joshua. The two of them didn’t study the Bible formally. They just picked up the Bible, felt the call of God in their lives and went ahead to set up their ministries. The Bible is very clear. 1st, 2nd and 3rd John dealt with Docetic Gnosticism. Note that the Bible was written in the Greek language. That word Docetic is from a man called Cerentus in the early church. Books dealing with the church history have this. Cerentus was later to propound what is to be called the Cerenten heresy. He went around telling people at that time that it is true that Jesus Christ came but that the Christ is a consciousness that came at any time in a generation. That is, Jesus is not the only of His kind.  It was a very serious problem for the church in Jerusalem. That was why John wrote to the church in Ephesus that anybody who brings that concept is the Antichrist. Christ, he said, had come in the flesh and not an apparition as Cerentus said. Anyone who believes in that philosophy is preaching Docetism which means that Christ is an apparition. It is because the man did not study his Bible, this accounts for why he was on the television saying he doesn’t know the source of my knowledge.  Joshua is preaching Docetism. Joshua took the name of Jesus, Joshua is Jesus in Hebrew name. Joshua calls himself Emmanuel, that is, ‘God with us.’ That was what the scriptures said of Jesus who was going to come, that when he comes, he will be Emmanuel; God with us. Joshua now wants to claim that he is another Jesus, he wants to prove that, by asking his people to say ‘Emmanuel’, pointing to him before giving testimony, meaning in other words, that Joshua is the God with us. But people do not know this because there are too many ignorant people in the body.  They do not study the book therefore they do not know what is going on. So, I told Oyakhilome that you could have been in big business with Joshua, but you can’t do that now because the man is calling himself God more or less. And he speaks about the finger of God. This is in the Book of Exodus. But Oyakhilome and Joshua are involved in big business and it would be uncovered very soon as long as Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Q: There is this accusation that you use extra-biblical text, that you derive all these big words from those apocryphal books.

A: That is not true; they have seen a man who has spent time studying. In the past, people did not take the word of God seriously. They will just pick a verse and try to interpret it. But when I got born again, I had an encounter with Jesus Christ at the peak of my singing career and when I decided I was going to follow Jesus, I made up my mind I was going to give God more than my best and so I took the time to go back and read up the material available. I studied the Bible because the Bible commanded that we should study the word of God to show ourselves as workmen that are not ashamed but rightly interpreting the word of truth.  If you want to convey the word of God you have to take time to study the word, that is why our programme on television is called’ Apocalypse,’ that is the first word in the Book of Revelation. It means the unveiling, the revelation. God knew that the Bible would be written in English but then he couldn’t have waited for it. But he chose the Greek language because it is much better, grammatically, in its presentation. And it is very concise. What you would say in eight sentences in English, a grammatical expression says it all in Greek. It is the job of a lecturer that lectures in a university to do the research, so also it is for the preacher. Oyakhilome said the reason why I know all these was because I was reading occultic books. It is such a manifestation of abysmal ignorance. It is all in the Bible. 

Q: In the first letter you accused Joshua that he wanted to invade your church on Christmas day and assassinate you and even use blackmail. Can you prove those things and how did you know.

A: The police are investigating the matter right now and we have the information that Joshua is very confused about how we got the information. It is like we already knew everything he is planning to do. The police will tell Nigerians how we got the information and what is exactly going on. 

Q: Some people say that this conflict is dragging too long. That only God can judge. Joshua even quoted the speech of Gamaliel in the Bible. Some say you should stop quarreling on the pages of newspapers.

A: The people who say that have neither read the Bible nor are they spiritually informed. I told the C-P that Joshua goes around saying that Gamaliel in the Bible stated that if the work that is being done by the disciples is of God, then no man should try to stop them, lest they seem to be fighting with God and that if it is not of God it will eventually peter out. Gamaliel made that statement but it is not a statement of fact. Experience has shown that if you don’t fight evil, it will destroy you. If you allow evil to thrive, it has the capacity to swallow up good. Gamaliel’s statement was not inspired by God. He just spoke out of sentimental reason to let the disciples go.  The Bible is very clear concerning people like Joshua. It says in the book of Timothy in the first chapter, that their mouth should be stopped. When Jude wrote about them, he used some of the most offensive diatribes that you can ever imagine. These are not small matters. If you don’t destroy these people, they will turn into a canker that will destroy the society. It must be clearly understood that I am fighting as a man of God. I am not fighting Oyakhilome, I am not fighting Joshua.  I have a responsibility as a Christian to tell them what is going on just as President Olusegun Obasanjo is fighting corruption at his own level. There is a greater corruption in the spirit realm that is worse than you taking bribe or embezzling government fund. This is talking about eternal damnation that will destroy the spirit, soul and body; and the consequences are eternal. We have a greater responsibility to warn our people. We are dealing with men working under mysticism. 

Q: Many have testified to going to Joshua and getting healed. Even foreigners and presidents of nations have testified to Joshua’s ability to heal. Could that be a Satan-influenced healing, because many popular members of our society, mostly sportsmen and politicians have testified to Joshua’s healing powers. Can there be satanic healings. If there are, how do they happen?

A: In the book of Acts there is a story when Paul and Silas were ministering to some women. There was a young lady there crying out after them saying to the people “These are the men who come from God to show us the way to the Lord.” The woman was pointing at Paul saying to the people if you want to know the real gospel, listen to them. The Bible says she did that for three days. At a point Paul got upset and spoke to the spirit inside her to come out.

It is called the spirit of divination. Yet in its manifestation that spirit was corroborating the ministry of Paul and Silas because she was saying these men are genuine. But the Bible tells us he commanded the spirit in that woman to come out, because it is a foul spirit.  What you have in the spirit of the devil are counterfeits. If you have the spirit of healing from God, you have the spirit of healing from the devil. And the spirit of the devil is what Martin Luther called the’ Ape of God’ It imitates God. There are circum­stances that Satan set up by himself. He is clever, you need to understand that. Satan has this power to cause a sickness and when he places such illness in a man and that man wants to be healed, he will send him to his own man like Joshua. And Joshua will speak to that illness because it was generated from the kingdom of darkness and it will tell it to go. If you are not aware of these things, you will never know that Joshua is not a man of God.  I explained in the church that the casting out of devil that Joshua does is called occult pacifism.

That is, Satan does not cast out Satan; he pacifies the demon in such persons. He appeals to them to remain dormant and they remain so. There is an appearance as if the person afflicted is healed but in the actual fact, the demon causing the illness was just lying dormant. But if you take that person to a Bible preaching church, you will see the re-emergence of such a demon in the person. When Joshua stretches his finger the way he does when healing, it is the “finger of God”. It is used to communicate with the spirit. It is an occult term. Some of the people that you say are popular this, popular that, there are many people like Joshua who will show you a case of real healing because they have been planted there by Satan. That is Shamanism. A Shaman is a magician but the difference is that he uses his magic in a healing way in a religious environment. He comes to us like a priest whereas underneath he is a magician.  “… When Joshua stretches his finger the way he does when healing, it is the “finger of God”. It is used to communicate with the spirit. It is an occult term. Some of the people that you say are popular this, popular that, there are many people like Joshua who will show you a case of real healing because they have been planted there by Satan. That is Shamanism…”     

Q: In the Bible, Jesus commanded evil spirits to come out. In the case of Joshua cant you pray and command the evil spirit in him to come out, instead of engaging in the verbal warfare that some church leaders have described as embarrassing to the church?

A: They are entitled to their opinion and I am not sure they are aware of what danger Joshua is posing to Christendom. You know Joshua is very feared by a lot of people. Because they don’t want to come against him, they make a lot of diplomatic statements that would appear that they are neither here nor there but I don’t have time for that. The Bible says, ‘You the strong ones, you are strong and have overcome the evil one’. There is something about youth that the Lord uses to confront evil. It was a young boy David that God used to confront Goliath. 

Q: Can’t you cast out the devil out of Joshua?

A: We cannot do that. Let me tell you why that is different. In the case of the lady in the book of Acts, she was just a medium. She had a master who profits from her divination powers. We are dealing with a man who has a will, who has invited demons to live with him, to enable him achieve his own purpose not somebody who is being oppressed like that lady.  We are talking about a man who has consciously accepted the power of Satan in order to work with: the devil. If you go to him and say you demons come out, you are fighting against his will and God doesn’t do that. The only people who are ever delivered or who are ever saved are the people who desire. Jesus said whosoever willeth let him come to me. But he will never come and force you. The day Joshua says ‘I am tired of the devil, I am fed up,’ we can help him.

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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T.B Joshua is fake -no credible spiritual tutelage- Pastor Mathew Ashimolowo says

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Read Time:5 Minute, 24 Second

Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo of Kingsway International Christian Centre, London speak on Pastor T. B. Joshua. He concludes that the inability of T.B. Joshua to trace his Christian journey and provide proofs of his spiritual conversion, give names of his spiritual fathers and friends give him up as fake. Excerpts.      

What is your position on the controversy about whether or not Pastor T.B Joshua of the Synagogue of All Nations might be fake?

A: I followed the whole argument and I noticed that TheNEWS published an extensive interview of Joshua. We kept track of developments, even when I was in London. I knew your magazine interviewed him .I was born in Zaria and grew up in Kaduna. And I left Kaduna in 1964. I went back in December last year. My journey from Abuja to Kaduna, because I was preaching at Abuja, was by road. And the magazine I chose to read was TheNEWS . In the magazine (I wish you keep that interview and put it on the web), it practically settled the matter of Joshua or T.B Joshua. Certain questions were asked him (and I believe the person who asked him must be a committed Christian). “Tell us when you were born, when you became a Christian.” And he said: “I have been a Christian from when I was born.” Zero, Zero, Zero! You do not inherit Christianity. 

My dad was a soldier but that didn’t make me a soldier. I loved the Army. I was reading to finish my A levels and go to the NDA when I got born again. My brother ended in the Army. I just never wanted another life but the Army. But being raised in the Army Barracks, spending 18 years of my life there, did not make me any near being part of the Nigerian Army other than to find the fact that I know their rudiments but I’m not on their books. 

I quoted the TheNEWS the following week, here in Lagos, I think the same week, I was preaching for Paul Adefarasin. I quoted TheNEWS as having interviewed him: “When did you become a Christian? How did you become a Christian?” He said “I was a Christian from my mother’s womb”. “Who is your pastor?” He did not answer that question. So, he has no pastor. He has no root as to when he got born again. His explanation as to the root of the miraculous in his life is mystical, not spiritual as in the Bible. 

Therefore, while on one hand I feel that the whole Chris Okotie, Joshua, Oyakhilome drama was unfortunate because I feel two brothers have allowed their fight to come out into the open, and it has been badly managed, yet, on another hand, I think in the process, they helped us to avert a major danger. It is my personal conclusion based on my observation and that Mr. T.B Joshua, in the beginning never claimed to be part of us. 

Probably, because he needed credibility, he therefore began to claim to be part of us. There is no proof of his salvation. We don’t know his Pastor. You ask me who was my Pastor and I’ll tell you who my Pastor was. Every man of God knows. We know the Pastor of Pastor Adeboye; we know the Pastor of Mike Okonkwo; we know the Pastor of Bishop Oyedepo we know the Pastors of all these men. We know where Chris Okotie began. I was in the same show with Chris Okotie. He didn’t know. In September 1979, when he just got born again and he was invited by Sunday Show NTA 10 , Tony Ogunlana, he was the producer in those days. He was interviewed for singing songs like ABC and so on.

I was interviewed by Richard Ikiebe. He used to write for Sunday Times .  I was interviewed as a young pastor in 1979. I was only 25 years old or something. We were on the same show. So, you can trace the salvation of Chris Okotie. You can trace that of Oyakhilome. He comes from a family of Assemblies of God. The previous general supervisor was a Rev. Oyakhilome. Where is T. B Joshua’s local Church? So, we don’t know Joshua’s pastor, we don’t know where he was raised from. He doesn’t have a testimony, based on TheNEWS. He has no testimony from where he got born again. He said he was born like that. So, we cannot accept that he is one of us. It is possible. I do not know; I have no proof. 

Q: Must he actually have the criteria you have outlined? Can’t one be born and be a man of God without going through the way outlined?

A: You can be born again through a personal encounter with God. That’s an occasion of one in ten thousand. Joshua could be one of the one in ten thousand, so everything is coincidental. Is salvation one in ten thousand? There is no local church we could connect him to. His being called, then, is one in ten thousand . There is no pastor we could connect him to. So, his call to ministration is also one in ten thousand because we’ve seen people who suddenly experienced the power of God. In 1923, Moses Orimolade experienced the power of God – moved in the super­natural. Cherubim and Seraphim did not start with white garment; the man experienced the genuine power of God and went out to begin to pray for people. The problem there was the absence of good teaching. There are people who have encountered God. But even then, Moses Orimolade came out of the Church of the Lord, Aladura. So there is a trace. Church of the Lord, Aladura, came out of the Anglican Church. 

In 1923, Joseph Ayo Babalola experienced a supernatural encounter with God when he was driving a trailer from Akure to llesa. When he got to a place called Arakeji, he experienced an encounter with God. And that was the place. There and then, he was called into ministry. You must have heard of the Precious Stone Church, the Faith Tabernacle, the Apostolic, the Christ Apostolic. Tell me about any man of God in this life, I’ve studied the history of revival in this country and I will tell you how he got born again. I don’t have a history of T.B Joshua.

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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T.B Joshua is fake -no credible spiritual tutelage- Pastor Mathew Ashimolowo says

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Read Time:5 Minute, 24 Second

Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo of Kingsway International Christian Centre, London speak on Pastor T. B. Joshua. He concludes that the inability of T.B. Joshua to trace his Christian journey and provide proofs of his spiritual conversion, give names of his spiritual fathers and friends give him up as fake. Excerpts.      

What is your position on the controversy about whether or not Pastor T.B Joshua of the Synagogue of All Nations might be fake?

A: I followed the whole argument and I noticed that TheNEWS published an extensive interview of Joshua. We kept track of developments, even when I was in London. I knew your magazine interviewed him .I was born in Zaria and grew up in Kaduna. And I left Kaduna in 1964. I went back in December last year. My journey from Abuja to Kaduna, because I was preaching at Abuja, was by road. And the magazine I chose to read was TheNEWS . In the magazine (I wish you keep that interview and put it on the web), it practically settled the matter of Joshua or T.B Joshua. Certain questions were asked him (and I believe the person who asked him must be a committed Christian). “Tell us when you were born, when you became a Christian.” And he said: “I have been a Christian from when I was born.” Zero, Zero, Zero! You do not inherit Christianity. 

My dad was a soldier but that didn’t make me a soldier. I loved the Army. I was reading to finish my A levels and go to the NDA when I got born again. My brother ended in the Army. I just never wanted another life but the Army. But being raised in the Army Barracks, spending 18 years of my life there, did not make me any near being part of the Nigerian Army other than to find the fact that I know their rudiments but I’m not on their books. 

I quoted the TheNEWS the following week, here in Lagos, I think the same week, I was preaching for Paul Adefarasin. I quoted TheNEWS as having interviewed him: “When did you become a Christian? How did you become a Christian?” He said “I was a Christian from my mother’s womb”. “Who is your pastor?” He did not answer that question. So, he has no pastor. He has no root as to when he got born again. His explanation as to the root of the miraculous in his life is mystical, not spiritual as in the Bible. 

Therefore, while on one hand I feel that the whole Chris Okotie, Joshua, Oyakhilome drama was unfortunate because I feel two brothers have allowed their fight to come out into the open, and it has been badly managed, yet, on another hand, I think in the process, they helped us to avert a major danger. It is my personal conclusion based on my observation and that Mr. T.B Joshua, in the beginning never claimed to be part of us. 

Probably, because he needed credibility, he therefore began to claim to be part of us. There is no proof of his salvation. We don’t know his Pastor. You ask me who was my Pastor and I’ll tell you who my Pastor was. Every man of God knows. We know the Pastor of Pastor Adeboye; we know the Pastor of Mike Okonkwo; we know the Pastor of Bishop Oyedepo we know the Pastors of all these men. We know where Chris Okotie began. I was in the same show with Chris Okotie. He didn’t know. In September 1979, when he just got born again and he was invited by Sunday Show NTA 10 , Tony Ogunlana, he was the producer in those days. He was interviewed for singing songs like ABC and so on.

I was interviewed by Richard Ikiebe. He used to write for Sunday Times .  I was interviewed as a young pastor in 1979. I was only 25 years old or something. We were on the same show. So, you can trace the salvation of Chris Okotie. You can trace that of Oyakhilome. He comes from a family of Assemblies of God. The previous general supervisor was a Rev. Oyakhilome. Where is T. B Joshua’s local Church? So, we don’t know Joshua’s pastor, we don’t know where he was raised from. He doesn’t have a testimony, based on TheNEWS. He has no testimony from where he got born again. He said he was born like that. So, we cannot accept that he is one of us. It is possible. I do not know; I have no proof. 

Q: Must he actually have the criteria you have outlined? Can’t one be born and be a man of God without going through the way outlined?

A: You can be born again through a personal encounter with God. That’s an occasion of one in ten thousand. Joshua could be one of the one in ten thousand, so everything is coincidental. Is salvation one in ten thousand? There is no local church we could connect him to. His being called, then, is one in ten thousand . There is no pastor we could connect him to. So, his call to ministration is also one in ten thousand because we’ve seen people who suddenly experienced the power of God. In 1923, Moses Orimolade experienced the power of God – moved in the super­natural. Cherubim and Seraphim did not start with white garment; the man experienced the genuine power of God and went out to begin to pray for people. The problem there was the absence of good teaching. There are people who have encountered God. But even then, Moses Orimolade came out of the Church of the Lord, Aladura. So there is a trace. Church of the Lord, Aladura, came out of the Anglican Church. 

In 1923, Joseph Ayo Babalola experienced a supernatural encounter with God when he was driving a trailer from Akure to llesa. When he got to a place called Arakeji, he experienced an encounter with God. And that was the place. There and then, he was called into ministry. You must have heard of the Precious Stone Church, the Faith Tabernacle, the Apostolic, the Christ Apostolic. Tell me about any man of God in this life, I’ve studied the history of revival in this country and I will tell you how he got born again. I don’t have a history of T.B Joshua.

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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His view on the world & T.B Joshua – Pastor Chris Oyakhilome

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Read Time:32 Minute, 7 Second

The humility and success of the founder of Christ Embassy is simply phenomenal. In a few years, the ministry has grown from a campus fellowship of a few hundreds to an international ministry making world-wide impact. And in nearly every country of the world, the gospel according to Pastor Chris is spreading fast. 

Oyakhilome talks about Jesus and the Holy Spirit as though they live together. Handsome and debonair, he delivers the message of the one he said sent him with a passion. In Nigeria his name has become synonymous with miracle healing. And when he talks about prosperity, he really is unapologetic. Hear him “I will never be broke in my life”. 
Since the debut of its TV programme in 1996, the ministry has remained on the cutting edge, pioneering new ways of doing things in the industry, that has become the envy of long established television stations. It has the largest Christian television network in Africa, and with its recently launched satellite station is reaching out to about a quarter of the world’s population. 
Aside miracle healing, Oyakhilome is also many things to different people. To some, he is controversial and to others, he is mysterious. And the man of God doesn’t help matters as he has consistently refused to grant press interviews. He would rather talk about the Christ he seeks to introduce than Pastor Chris. Last week, National Standard in line with our avowed commitment to letting you hear from notable Nigerians got Pastor Chris to talk. He spoke with Editor-in-Chief, Ambrose Isesele. We serve you the first of a two part series. You will be glad to read this.

You are perhaps one of the most recognizable Nigerians of our time. However, due to a seemingly averse attitude to press interviews and media publicity, there is something of a mystery surrounding your person. Who is Pastor Chris?

Firstly, I am not adverse to press interviews or to the media; at least I am talking to you now. That conclusion is erroneous. Most probably, they did not come the right way. After all, I am on television everyday. So I can not be said to be adverse to the media.
Secondly, you asked, ‘Who is Pastor Chris?’ The question is slightly difficult because I do not know what you are expecting me to say. Pastor Chris is just someone called of God to preach the gospel. So, I preach Jesus Christ, the one whom I introduce. Everywhere I go, I have to introduce him rather than myself. So I don’t talk about me but about the one who sent me.

So little is known about your organization’s activities. Why the media blackout?
It depends on what you are looking for. If you want to know what we preach, it is known around the world. Our materials are out, in books, tapes, on TV and on the internet. So it can not be said that little is known about the ministry, because you can hear the message, and the most important thing in the ministry is the message. If our message is preached and heard, we have succeeded, even if we as individuals are 
not known and the structures are not known.
Jesus preached a message, Paul preached a message. Ask anybody now to describe for you the ministry of Paul. He can only be described with his message. No one can say anything else apart from through his message, his journeys. Do you understand? So that’s about it really. It is not because we do not want anyone to know anything; it is just that we are more concerned about our mission than ourselves.

What exactly is the scope of your ministry?

Jesus said to go into the entire world and preach the gospel and I believe our message is going around the world. We are covering many parts of Africa and Europe; we are reaching into America, Asia and now we are going into Australia and New Zealand. So, we are going that far based on our message and instructions.

How do you do that?
By the power of the Spirit. We have a worldwide Television ministry and churches all over the world. 

How many churches do you have?
The truth is that we are increasing regularly and far beyond my personal work. I get to hear a new church has been started. Because we are training leaders all the time, so the structure is such that I personally do not have to pursue the growth of these churches. They are springing up from time to time as we preach around the world. So, they are very many. I think that is the best way I can put it.

Your television ministry is quite expansive and must be costing you a fortune; and you have a lot of activities going on around the world. A lot of people would have been satisfied with even a quarter of what you have done and seen it as a life time achievement, but you keep on pushing. What is your motivation; what drives you?
Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel”. So, the bottom line is preaching the gospel. We are preaching the gospel and we are raising people to do the same. Of course a lot of times people ask me some of the questions you are asking now, how many churches we have and why do we preach like this? But Jesus said to do it. The message is so important; we want the whole world to hear it. It is the message of their salvation; we are not just building a ministry like we are building an organization. No! The reason for all the structures and all of the materials that we are producing is because of the message of salvation. Man needs to hear what God has already done for him in Christ Jesus. And that is why we’ve got to preach it so they can hear it everywhere. That is the driving force; the importance of the message and this is the only way they can be saved.

How large is your church?
In Nigeria alone we have more than one million members spread across the country.

The name Pastor Chris is synonymous with miracles. Why the emphasis on miracles? 
I do not lay emphasis on miracles. There are people who say that I preach miracles, but I do not preach miracles. The truth is that, when Jesus came, He did not lay emphasis on miracles, but more than two-third of his ministry was on healing the sick. Why? Not because he preached healing, but he came to heal. Now, I have a message that certainly heals people. You can not hear that message and remain sick, poor or dejected. It would bring you hope and life. So I do not emphasize miracles. I emphasize the living Christ and when I do that, the divine power of the Holy Ghost follows the message, and of a necessity, there will be healings and miracles. How can you believe in God without having miracles? God is a supernatural being and if he is real, there must be supernatural acts and responses. So the miracles are there to prove his existence, his presence and his message. In fact we do not necessarily heal the sick to prove it. It is his presence that proves it. So I do not preach miracles or emphasize miracles. I emphasize Christ and the miracles have to follow. They are like your credentials. If you preach Jesus Christ and he sent you, he will back up your claims. Now if he doesn’t back up your claims, you have to find out whether or not you are called. So those miracles are given by Jesus to confirm that he sent us. So he is the one actually performing these miracles. 

Are these miracles real? Skeptics believe that it is either a means of taking advantage of people who are distressed and desperate for solutions, or a means of diverting people’s attention from the challenges of living in a real world to the pursuit of a utopia that is really non-existent. 
Just because you believe they are not real doesn’t mean they are not real. Anybody can believe what he wants to. There was a time people said it was impossible to transmit sound without a material medium, but it happened. There was a day they believed the earth was flat and that if you got to the edge you would fall off, but that did not make it true. So miracles are real. It is like saying ‘I do not believe that man can land on the moon”, just because you have not been there. Some people have been there and they have come back with reports and we believe them. And today, we are planning a lot of things on earth based on their findings. 
There are those who also ask us to prove the miracles. The question is, Do they really believe there was a Jesus at all? Did Jesus perform miracles? Historical accounts show that he did. The bible proves that he did. If these questions were posed by non-Christians, I will not be concerned about it. They do not believe anyway, and that’s why we are preaching to them so that they can believe.
But when questions like these are posed by Christians, it becomes disturbing. It’s a stupid question for a Christian to ask. A Christian asking if miracles are real? No, they don’t believe in Jesus. They believe Jesus was raised from the dead and he is in heaven. Where is heaven? If he was raised from the dead, that was a miracle. Ok! If Jesus performed miracles and he was raised from the dead, then what is he today? Has he changed? Does he still have the power? If he doesn’t have the power, was he robbed of it? Is he more powerful today than then? Or is he less powerful, or the same? If he is less powerful, then we shouldn’t expect miracles. Then he is not Lord. His death was a defeat and there is no reason for all theChristians to believe in him, and there is no need for Christianity. If he is the same, then he must be able to perform the miracles. So the least he could be is to be the same; which means, the miracles he performed then must be real. Now if those miracles can no longer be performed, then it means that he left us worse than when he came and there is no reason for that since he brought us salvation. Salvation is a miracle. So if the miracles are not real, salvation is not real. So anybody who says he is born again is lying to himself because to be born again is a miracle. Many of these folks believe that they have received the Holy Spirit. Where is the Holy Spirit? Can you see the Holy Spirit with your optical eyes? No! Is there such a Spirit? Yes! If the Spirit is true and real, then his acts must be true and real. So, these miracles are true and real. They are as real as the Holy Spirit because He does them. They are as real as the living Christ because he is back of them.

What are miracles and how do they happen?
A miracle is an inexplicable intervention by a supernatural power in the natural affairs of man. A miracle is something beyond the normal course of events. Usually a miracle is a positive event. It is not something that destroys. You cannot say an earthquake is a miracle because it is not positive. Miracles are positive events, happenings; they make you glad, happy and bring fulfillment and joy. They are such interruptions of the normal course of events, of the normal habits of man.

If you were running and fell down and got yourself wounded, the natural course is that it should get healed sooner or later, and then if you treat it medically, it may speed up the process. That is the natural course. But when such a wound closes up in an instant or overnight, it is a miracle! It is out of the normal course. Or if someone who was born blind and cannot see naturally, maybe because of the destruction of one or two areas of his

optical structure, suddenly begins to see, that is a miracle! So, Jesus opened blind eyes, unstopped deaf ears, made the lame walk; all these were people who naturally could not have had their situations changed. This happened either in a split second or even as a gradual process, yet it was beyond the ordinary. So, it was a miracle.

There is the issue of people falling down when you touch them or blow some air on them. Why do people fall when Pastor Chris touches them?
Why do people fall when Pastor Chris touches them? Wonderful! First it is important for us to realize that the power and the glory of God is more than man can accommodate. When the glory of God overwhelms a man, he cannot stand it. It is a sign from God that proves His presence. I do not have control over it. He gave me that power as a sign to the world.

Are the workings of miracles the exclusive preserve of a chosen few like you? 
Yes and No! No, in the sense that miracles can happen when you pray because God has promised to answer prayers. So, if anyone would pray the bible way, God will answer and God’s response to man’s request is itself a miracle. So anybody could have a miracle. Then yes, in the sense that there are those who are chosen and anointed with special power for healings and miracles and the bible talks about that. If you would read in 1st Corinthians 12 verse 27-30, it tells us about those who are anointed to perform miracles. So there are specific callings in that regards.

Your meetings attract the largest crowds in the country today with estimated crowds of between 1m – 2.5million people. What is the ‘catch’? What brings people there?
It’s not a catch. I believe we are given different gifts and callings. God uses us in different ways; I just think that is God’s grace. You see, God has something to say and I am his mouth piece. So he does three things. Number one is to give me the message that He wants me to communicate; number two is for Him to draw the people that He wants to hear it and number three is to confirm the message with miraculous signs. That is the way I look at it. It is up to him. I am not sure that I have a personal control over that. I think it is just God’s grace.

Within the last three years, there has been a lot of controversies surrounding. Pastor Chris: from your association with Prophet T.B. Joshua which led to your split with the mainstream Pentecostal ministers in the country to issues of large donations to the ministry by members who purportedly defrauded their organizations and then the ban on miracle programmes by the National Broadcasting Commission. Your silence at every point gives the impression that you love controversies.
It is not true that I love controversies. Jesus was a controversial figure and his ministry was controversial, not because Jesus loved controversies or that he sparked off controversies but because the people thought and acted differently from God’s ways of doing things and so Jesus could never agree with them; and that is where controversies begin – disagreements. So these so called controversies were not things that I sparked off, nor is it that I enjoy controversies. Then why was I silent? Because Jesus did not need to respond to his critics! So, I have found no reason to respond to them. One thing you need to know about your critics is this: no great man ever criticized a lesser man. respond because only lesser men criticize greater men.
You can only be criticized by those who are lesser than you. So the response to criticism should always be from that stand point. When you are criticized, you ask yourself, ‘Is this a criticism’. If it is, then you do not need to.
And that immediately suggests that the one who criticizes you deserves no response. That is the reason why I have not thought of responding to them.

How did your relationship with Prophet T.B Joshua begin? Rev Chris Okotie said then that T.B. Joshua recruited or ordained you into his cult way back 1986. 
I remember in 2001 a lot of ministers including Pastor Chris Okotie, Bishop Mike Okonkwo and Pastor Tunde Bakare did say things along that line. The truth is that they were all wrong. They were getting information from the wrong sources, and it is unfortunate that they believed their wrong sources; incidentally none of them asked me intelligent questions. I hope to write a book on the episode someday. I have so much to say about all that transpired, maybe for the future. It was an interesting period, but the truth is that what they said was not true. I was surprised when the fact that I related with Prophet T.B Joshua, sparked off controversies. I was very surprised. You wonder why? Because I related with a lot of folks and nobody said anything, so I wondered why they got so mad about this one.

This was no ordinary person. This was Prophet T.B. Joshua; a man whom most ministers believe is involved in occultic practices.
I was surprised that they all said that. Remember that Jesus visited non-followers, non believers and he was criticized by the religious folks of his day. They said this man eateth and drinketh with sinners. They said Jesus could not be a prophet of God because he ate and drank with sinners. I thought if I related with anybody, it shouldn’t be a problem, even if he was a sinner. There was no reason for that. After all everybody needs the gospel. So from that stand point I was surprised at their response. It was the wrong response anyway. I remember that I made a tape then, called ‘Truth on Trial’ and there I said, “Just because you hate somebody does not mean I have to hate with you”. When Jesus related with sinners, they did not change him. So, no matter what they thought T.B. Joshua was, my relating with him shouldn’t have been expected to change me. So, it was very wrong for anyone to have interfered.

They said he was of the devil… 
Well, that is between them and God.

How exactly did you meet T.B. Joshua? 
It was in 2001 that I met him or spoke with him for the first time, contrary to the assertions of the PFN leaders. He called me on the phone. He had been watching our programme on television with some of his visitors, and there was this episode of a little girl who was born blind, who received her sight at our crusade. He said he was moved by the miracle and decided to call me. That was our first contact. After that, we spoke several other times on telephone. At that time, I had only seen maybe two or three of his programmes on TV. I did not know much about him at all, and so when he spoke with me on the phone, we exchanged pleasantries, and made references to what we were doing. 
In the process of time, on a particular Wednesday, several weeks after we had been talking on the phone, he called me on the phone and requested that I joined him in ministering to a particular man that was coming from Holland, 
during a special service that night. I said we’ll be having a service and he said his service was going to be all night long. I was going to finish mine about 9 pm and his was going to be all night, so I said ‘alright, how long is it going to take me to get to where you are?’ He said it’s about 30 minutes, half an hour. I said ok, ‘if I get out of here around 9 o’ clock, I’ll be there by 9.30. I’ll try to make it’. I went there with several people.
We met for the first time, face to face then, and went into the congregation and he introduced me to them and I greeted the people. Of course a lot of them had been seeing me on television and so they were excited to see me come to their church. Shortly after I greeted them, I went with him to the healing section. We got to the healing section; he started out ministering to them while I was waiting because I was only going to join him in ministering to the foreigners based on his earlier request. When we got to the section where the foreigners were, most of whom were from Holland, we both ministered to the man who was sick of multiple sclerosis. I believe his name was Jan Westerhof; that was about it.
Now you must realize that before I met with T.B. Joshua, I’d been holding crusades and healing services for years. This was 2001 and by then I had held many crusades with thousands of people and we already had our programme, Atmosphere For Miracles, where we showed testimonies of people who were getting healed in our meetings. So healings and miracles were not new to me. When I met with him, of course I was excited, glad to see someone who was interested in the kind of things that I was doing. 
When these controversies came up, when these pastors, Pastor Chris Okotie, Bishop Mike Okonkwo and Pastor Tunde Bakare got on television and began to say a lot of things, I actually had to maintain an association of sympathy with the man. There are so many things I have to say like I told you, but these are all leaders in the church and I wouldn’t want to say things that would make them unhappy with themselves or even make members of their congregation unhappy with them. I do not think that is my responsibility. So I would not want to go into certain details.

Did you at any moment think that your detractors were right and you wrong? After all you were the only man on your side of the divide. 
I knew they were wrong all the time. Maybe I should define something, because the issue was not T.B. Joshua. They tried to make him the issue. He was not the issue. And I can prove that. The reason I said they tried to make him the issue is this; the president of the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria, PFN, became the Vice President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN, of which the Synagogue Church headed by T.B. Joshua is a part, Cherubim and Seraphim is a part, Celestial Church of Christ is a part and many other groups. In fact, he became the de facto Vice President of the Synagogue! And nobody said anything about it. There could be no better endorsement of T.B. Joshua from the PFN than that. If you could fraternize with all these groups as their Vice President, doesn’t that say something, if indeed any of them was really of the Devil? Imagine Paul the Apostle as the Vice President of an occultic group? The point is T.B. Joshua was not the problem. They used him as the reason for their actions which were based on their wrong spiritual perceptions.

Rev Okotie claimed that T.B. Joshua laid hands on you and ordained you into ministry. When a newsmagazine asked the Prophet a question along that line, his answer sounded ambiguous lending credence to Okotie’s assertion. So did T.B. Joshua lay hands on you?
The answer is No! That did not happen, I was never a part of his ministry as alleged by Chris Okotie and others. I was never a part of Synagogue. I met him for the first time in 2001. I have never been involved in their ministry and he has never had to minister to me. We have related as friends. I have many minister friends, even though we don’t all exactly believe the same things. 

What about the issue of money? Pastor Tunde Bakare said he saw a vision in which you were collecting money or deposit slips from T.B. Joshua and concluded you must have compromised for the sake of filthy lucre.
The allegations that he gave me money and that he was sponsoring our television programme doesn’t make sense, considering our financial status as a ministry. T.B. Joshua must have been flattered to hear that from Pastor Bakare. It was all false. 

There is this video tape featuring you and T.B. Joshua, healing a man from Holland in a wheelchair. A voice over referred to you as the Junior Prophet. Have you seen the tape?
(Laughs) Firstly, I have not seen the commercial or consumer version of the tape. But, I have a copy of the original edit that includes my whole visit and activities there. You know that as in several church organizations where they call the helmsman, Senior Pastor or General Overseer, T.B. Joshua is referred to as the Senior Prophet at the Synagogue. It’s unfortunate that the commentator was not corrected in his error or assumption that whoever was ministering with the Senior Prophet must therefore be the Junior Prophet. I know some of the foreigners, who were not in the main service when I addressed the congregation, could have thought so, because they were in the emergency section waiting for healing. I remember one of them in his testimony actually made that comment. 
Even though I was not offended, they should have been corrected.

Your liaison with T.B. Joshua caused a deep friction within Pentecostal circles and sparked off a crisis that many believed was going to destroy your ministry. How did you weather the storm?
You see, what many do not understand is this: the so called crisis period did not lead to anything. They were the ones that had a crisis. I was not in crisis, and this was what they did not understand. We have a firm bible based ministry. If a ministry like this could have been destroyed by things like this, that would have happened a very long time ago. So, I was not in crisis and did not need to weather the storm. I just went on with my business.

Were you not concerned about the status of your detractors? You were pitched against the Who is Who in Nigerian Pentecostal circles; especially considering the fact that men of God like Bishop Mike Okonkwo, and Pastor Adeboye of the Redeemed Church and even Matthew Ashimolowo made certain remarks about you then.
I did not mind. I was never bitter about it. They were all misled by their sources or assumptions. I have never met Pastor Ashimolowo or Pastor Adeboye. They don’t know me. Even though Pastor Adeboye granted us the use of the Redeemed Camp facilities twice, several years ago, for which we remain grateful, I’ve never met him. But, whatever their comments were, I leave it all to God. You see, I have been brought up strong in the word of God. I have walked with the Holy Spirit enough to know, like the Apostle Paul that none of these things move me.
And if you are successful, you expect people to come after you. If you amount to anything you should never be surprised when people criticize you. Never be surprised when people rise against you and condemn you. Jesus said we should not be amazed when they say all manner of evil against us and accuse us falsely. Jesus was accused falsely. If I have been accused falsely and criticized by people, it does not mean anything. I am in good company because Jesus and the apostles suffered the same things. But they were successful and so have I been and I’ll continue to be because I am walking in the path of light. So I already knew the end from the beginning.

Did you feel a sense of betrayal by those who were supposedly members of your primary constituency?
A sense of betrayal? They were not my primary constituency. That is the problem! I have never focused on them.

But they were also ministers.
That is what I am saying. I did not think about them. You see, God speaking to the children of Israel, said, “When I called Abraham, I called him alone”. You see prophets stand alone. When God calls you, he calls you alone. I only had Jesus in focus and always wanted to make sure that I did that, which would please him. I did not want to condemn them and I still would not say anything against them but that does not mean that what they said was the truth. It is still not true. Some people thought I was defending T.B. Joshua. No! I was defending the truth. All I said was, no matter what you think about him, treat him right. Period! Treat him the way Jesus said to treat people.

Did you ever get disturbed about the prospect of coming to church and finding your congregation has left? Some of the ministers advised them to leave you for the sake of their spiritual sanity.
(Laughs) Well I never even considered what they said. As a matter of fact, anybody can say anything. The question is, who was he speaking for? The bible says in Lamentation 3: 37, “who is it that speaketh and it cometh to pass when the Lord commanded it not”? No matter what anybody says, if God’s power is not in their words, the words are empty. So those were empty words, they did not come to pass; they did not work or produce results. I was sent by God and it was important for me to know who sent me, and it was also important for me to know what my mission was.

Your strategies for handling controversies and crisis are rather strange. While others are addressing press conferences and issuing press release, you maintain a stoic silence. Is it on purpose, like a special strategy? 
Well, not really. It is not on purpose. It is not planned. I am just doing what I was called to do. I do not think it is my responsibility to respond to issues that are raised by different people. I have a mission, I have a message to preach, and I am on television everyday. I have been given a unique opportunity, a very rare privilege from God. I do not know what more I could ask for. I have the opportunity to talk to millions of people around the world. I have been tremendously blessed and favoured. I can not ask for more. So in terms of having the opportunity or the platform to express myself, I have it more than any newspaper or media organization in this country could grant me. So the truth is: I have enough platform to say what I want to say. I have been tremendously favoured to be able to get on the electronic media on all formats, all around the world, hold crusades and do all the things I want to do! Our books and tapes are everywhere and so I’m just focused, doing the things I am called to do.

The world is all about relationships. As a journalist, I get to relate with other journalists. We hear of corroboration between other ministers as they hold joint programmes and preach in each other’s churches. But Pastor Chris doesn’t preach anywhere else but Christ Embassy, and he doesn’t have minister friends. People think you are proud.
(Laughs) Well, certain people think that until you relate with them particularly, you have not related with anybody. That is wrong. I have thousands of ministers in our ministry and that is more than enough to relate with. I relate with ministers regularly. 
I do not know what else I should be doing. And remember, the more ministers you relate with, the less time you’ll have to relate with God. So I think I have more than enough already, I am now trying to have ministers to relate to other ministers, so I can even relate less. That is it. The ministry is different from other businesses. You gave yourself as an example; as a journalist, you relate with other journalists, but the ministry is different. You need to relate more with the Holy Spirit than with anybody else.

Is that the reason you are not a member of the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria, PFN, or Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN?
PFN or CAN? You know sometimes people make some things seem more serious than they really are. The Christian Association of Nigeria is a great organization started by human beings. God did not say you must be in CAN to be able to function.

I think they are doing their job the best way they know how, but I do not know what their aims and objectives are, and I have a vision that is unique.
The Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria has its beliefs. I am not a Pentecostal and therefore don’t have to be a part of it. It’s like they are not Baptists, else, why did they not join the Baptist Fellowship of Nigeria? Why? We all believe in Jesus; why did they not join the Baptist? Because of their beliefs! So they feel they are different from the Baptists and there is nothing wrong with that. I think it depends on beliefs. I do not believe everything from the Pentecostal stand point, because there is nothing Pentecostal in Christianity.

The term Pentecostal denotes all those who believe in being born again, speaking in tongues…
That is wrong; It’s a misnomer. I know where it came from. It came from the fact that on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers in the upper room in Acts, chapter two. But the truth is that it came only on those who were not celebrating Pentecost! Those who were celebrating Pentecost where outside and did not receive the Holy Spirit. So, from the biblical point, the Pentecostals were those who did not receive the Holy Spirit the day the Holy Spirit came. Those who received the Holy Spirit were not celebrating Pentecost.

But the term ‘Pentecostal’ is generally accepted…
That is the problem. Many people prefer to do what is generally accepted instead of the truth. I think they have not done enough study on that subject and that is the reason; and of course don’t forget people would rather die with their names than change it. So I am not suggesting they change. I am just telling you why I am not a member of PFN, because for the same reason they are not members of the Baptist fellowship or the Anglican or Methodist. These are all Christians but they do not believe everything they do and I do not believe everything they do! Even beginning with their name, but I am not against them at all.

Aside healing, another cardinal aspect of your teaching is prosperity. And of course you cannot talk prosperity without talking about money; the love of which the bible says is the root of all evil. The problem with our nation today stems from the unbridled lust for acquisitions. Shouldn’t the church focus on holiness, self denial, and other subjects associated with traditional Christianity. 
Well, the church should not focus on any of those things. The church should focus on Jesus and his message and when they do that, they would talk about all these things because they concern man. The true message then will include self denial, holiness and righteousness, not as a pursuit but as a result. In talking about the issue of money, remember that people go to work seven days a week, many five days a week but a lot of them six to seven days a week. They go because of money. And Jesus talked a lot about money. If you do not teach people about money, then they would do the wrong things. The bible doesn’t say money is the root of all evil; it is the love of money. What about the stem, the branches of all evil? What about the fruit of all evil? No one is talking about that. After all, the root will not stay by itself. There are other things that are connected to evil; it is not only the love of money that is bad.

There are a lot of other things that are bad. Prosperity is important and we preach it, not because we want to talk about it, but because this is in the message of Jesus Christ. 

How old is Pastor Chris? There is a mystery surrounding your age; no birthday greetings in the papers carry your age.
Well I would say I am a bit fascinated by the media creation of a mystery because none of us created it. I went to schools, and so must have registered with my age declarations, I have a passport and my date of birth must be there. I have filled so many forms throughout this country. So for anybody to suggest that there is a mystery about my age seems mischievous. So I think I would rather leave it that way.

Will you like to solve the mystery for us?
No. It seems mischievous and ridiculous, but maybe I have enjoyed the mystery created by the media over the issue and would just let it be.

Watch out for the 2nd part of this interview.

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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His view on the world & T.B Joshua – Pastor Chris Oyakhilome

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Read Time:32 Minute, 7 Second

The humility and success of the founder of Christ Embassy is simply phenomenal. In a few years, the ministry has grown from a campus fellowship of a few hundreds to an international ministry making world-wide impact. And in nearly every country of the world, the gospel according to Pastor Chris is spreading fast. 

Oyakhilome talks about Jesus and the Holy Spirit as though they live together. Handsome and debonair, he delivers the message of the one he said sent him with a passion. In Nigeria his name has become synonymous with miracle healing. And when he talks about prosperity, he really is unapologetic. Hear him “I will never be broke in my life”. 
Since the debut of its TV programme in 1996, the ministry has remained on the cutting edge, pioneering new ways of doing things in the industry, that has become the envy of long established television stations. It has the largest Christian television network in Africa, and with its recently launched satellite station is reaching out to about a quarter of the world’s population. 
Aside miracle healing, Oyakhilome is also many things to different people. To some, he is controversial and to others, he is mysterious. And the man of God doesn’t help matters as he has consistently refused to grant press interviews. He would rather talk about the Christ he seeks to introduce than Pastor Chris. Last week, National Standard in line with our avowed commitment to letting you hear from notable Nigerians got Pastor Chris to talk. He spoke with Editor-in-Chief, Ambrose Isesele. We serve you the first of a two part series. You will be glad to read this.

You are perhaps one of the most recognizable Nigerians of our time. However, due to a seemingly averse attitude to press interviews and media publicity, there is something of a mystery surrounding your person. Who is Pastor Chris?

Firstly, I am not adverse to press interviews or to the media; at least I am talking to you now. That conclusion is erroneous. Most probably, they did not come the right way. After all, I am on television everyday. So I can not be said to be adverse to the media.
Secondly, you asked, ‘Who is Pastor Chris?’ The question is slightly difficult because I do not know what you are expecting me to say. Pastor Chris is just someone called of God to preach the gospel. So, I preach Jesus Christ, the one whom I introduce. Everywhere I go, I have to introduce him rather than myself. So I don’t talk about me but about the one who sent me.

So little is known about your organization’s activities. Why the media blackout?
It depends on what you are looking for. If you want to know what we preach, it is known around the world. Our materials are out, in books, tapes, on TV and on the internet. So it can not be said that little is known about the ministry, because you can hear the message, and the most important thing in the ministry is the message. If our message is preached and heard, we have succeeded, even if we as individuals are 
not known and the structures are not known.
Jesus preached a message, Paul preached a message. Ask anybody now to describe for you the ministry of Paul. He can only be described with his message. No one can say anything else apart from through his message, his journeys. Do you understand? So that’s about it really. It is not because we do not want anyone to know anything; it is just that we are more concerned about our mission than ourselves.

What exactly is the scope of your ministry?

Jesus said to go into the entire world and preach the gospel and I believe our message is going around the world. We are covering many parts of Africa and Europe; we are reaching into America, Asia and now we are going into Australia and New Zealand. So, we are going that far based on our message and instructions.

How do you do that?
By the power of the Spirit. We have a worldwide Television ministry and churches all over the world. 

How many churches do you have?
The truth is that we are increasing regularly and far beyond my personal work. I get to hear a new church has been started. Because we are training leaders all the time, so the structure is such that I personally do not have to pursue the growth of these churches. They are springing up from time to time as we preach around the world. So, they are very many. I think that is the best way I can put it.

Your television ministry is quite expansive and must be costing you a fortune; and you have a lot of activities going on around the world. A lot of people would have been satisfied with even a quarter of what you have done and seen it as a life time achievement, but you keep on pushing. What is your motivation; what drives you?
Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel”. So, the bottom line is preaching the gospel. We are preaching the gospel and we are raising people to do the same. Of course a lot of times people ask me some of the questions you are asking now, how many churches we have and why do we preach like this? But Jesus said to do it. The message is so important; we want the whole world to hear it. It is the message of their salvation; we are not just building a ministry like we are building an organization. No! The reason for all the structures and all of the materials that we are producing is because of the message of salvation. Man needs to hear what God has already done for him in Christ Jesus. And that is why we’ve got to preach it so they can hear it everywhere. That is the driving force; the importance of the message and this is the only way they can be saved.

How large is your church?
In Nigeria alone we have more than one million members spread across the country.

The name Pastor Chris is synonymous with miracles. Why the emphasis on miracles? 
I do not lay emphasis on miracles. There are people who say that I preach miracles, but I do not preach miracles. The truth is that, when Jesus came, He did not lay emphasis on miracles, but more than two-third of his ministry was on healing the sick. Why? Not because he preached healing, but he came to heal. Now, I have a message that certainly heals people. You can not hear that message and remain sick, poor or dejected. It would bring you hope and life. So I do not emphasize miracles. I emphasize the living Christ and when I do that, the divine power of the Holy Ghost follows the message, and of a necessity, there will be healings and miracles. How can you believe in God without having miracles? God is a supernatural being and if he is real, there must be supernatural acts and responses. So the miracles are there to prove his existence, his presence and his message. In fact we do not necessarily heal the sick to prove it. It is his presence that proves it. So I do not preach miracles or emphasize miracles. I emphasize Christ and the miracles have to follow. They are like your credentials. If you preach Jesus Christ and he sent you, he will back up your claims. Now if he doesn’t back up your claims, you have to find out whether or not you are called. So those miracles are given by Jesus to confirm that he sent us. So he is the one actually performing these miracles. 

Are these miracles real? Skeptics believe that it is either a means of taking advantage of people who are distressed and desperate for solutions, or a means of diverting people’s attention from the challenges of living in a real world to the pursuit of a utopia that is really non-existent. 
Just because you believe they are not real doesn’t mean they are not real. Anybody can believe what he wants to. There was a time people said it was impossible to transmit sound without a material medium, but it happened. There was a day they believed the earth was flat and that if you got to the edge you would fall off, but that did not make it true. So miracles are real. It is like saying ‘I do not believe that man can land on the moon”, just because you have not been there. Some people have been there and they have come back with reports and we believe them. And today, we are planning a lot of things on earth based on their findings. 
There are those who also ask us to prove the miracles. The question is, Do they really believe there was a Jesus at all? Did Jesus perform miracles? Historical accounts show that he did. The bible proves that he did. If these questions were posed by non-Christians, I will not be concerned about it. They do not believe anyway, and that’s why we are preaching to them so that they can believe.
But when questions like these are posed by Christians, it becomes disturbing. It’s a stupid question for a Christian to ask. A Christian asking if miracles are real? No, they don’t believe in Jesus. They believe Jesus was raised from the dead and he is in heaven. Where is heaven? If he was raised from the dead, that was a miracle. Ok! If Jesus performed miracles and he was raised from the dead, then what is he today? Has he changed? Does he still have the power? If he doesn’t have the power, was he robbed of it? Is he more powerful today than then? Or is he less powerful, or the same? If he is less powerful, then we shouldn’t expect miracles. Then he is not Lord. His death was a defeat and there is no reason for all theChristians to believe in him, and there is no need for Christianity. If he is the same, then he must be able to perform the miracles. So the least he could be is to be the same; which means, the miracles he performed then must be real. Now if those miracles can no longer be performed, then it means that he left us worse than when he came and there is no reason for that since he brought us salvation. Salvation is a miracle. So if the miracles are not real, salvation is not real. So anybody who says he is born again is lying to himself because to be born again is a miracle. Many of these folks believe that they have received the Holy Spirit. Where is the Holy Spirit? Can you see the Holy Spirit with your optical eyes? No! Is there such a Spirit? Yes! If the Spirit is true and real, then his acts must be true and real. So, these miracles are true and real. They are as real as the Holy Spirit because He does them. They are as real as the living Christ because he is back of them.

What are miracles and how do they happen?
A miracle is an inexplicable intervention by a supernatural power in the natural affairs of man. A miracle is something beyond the normal course of events. Usually a miracle is a positive event. It is not something that destroys. You cannot say an earthquake is a miracle because it is not positive. Miracles are positive events, happenings; they make you glad, happy and bring fulfillment and joy. They are such interruptions of the normal course of events, of the normal habits of man.

If you were running and fell down and got yourself wounded, the natural course is that it should get healed sooner or later, and then if you treat it medically, it may speed up the process. That is the natural course. But when such a wound closes up in an instant or overnight, it is a miracle! It is out of the normal course. Or if someone who was born blind and cannot see naturally, maybe because of the destruction of one or two areas of his

optical structure, suddenly begins to see, that is a miracle! So, Jesus opened blind eyes, unstopped deaf ears, made the lame walk; all these were people who naturally could not have had their situations changed. This happened either in a split second or even as a gradual process, yet it was beyond the ordinary. So, it was a miracle.

There is the issue of people falling down when you touch them or blow some air on them. Why do people fall when Pastor Chris touches them?
Why do people fall when Pastor Chris touches them? Wonderful! First it is important for us to realize that the power and the glory of God is more than man can accommodate. When the glory of God overwhelms a man, he cannot stand it. It is a sign from God that proves His presence. I do not have control over it. He gave me that power as a sign to the world.

Are the workings of miracles the exclusive preserve of a chosen few like you? 
Yes and No! No, in the sense that miracles can happen when you pray because God has promised to answer prayers. So, if anyone would pray the bible way, God will answer and God’s response to man’s request is itself a miracle. So anybody could have a miracle. Then yes, in the sense that there are those who are chosen and anointed with special power for healings and miracles and the bible talks about that. If you would read in 1st Corinthians 12 verse 27-30, it tells us about those who are anointed to perform miracles. So there are specific callings in that regards.

Your meetings attract the largest crowds in the country today with estimated crowds of between 1m – 2.5million people. What is the ‘catch’? What brings people there?
It’s not a catch. I believe we are given different gifts and callings. God uses us in different ways; I just think that is God’s grace. You see, God has something to say and I am his mouth piece. So he does three things. Number one is to give me the message that He wants me to communicate; number two is for Him to draw the people that He wants to hear it and number three is to confirm the message with miraculous signs. That is the way I look at it. It is up to him. I am not sure that I have a personal control over that. I think it is just God’s grace.

Within the last three years, there has been a lot of controversies surrounding. Pastor Chris: from your association with Prophet T.B. Joshua which led to your split with the mainstream Pentecostal ministers in the country to issues of large donations to the ministry by members who purportedly defrauded their organizations and then the ban on miracle programmes by the National Broadcasting Commission. Your silence at every point gives the impression that you love controversies.
It is not true that I love controversies. Jesus was a controversial figure and his ministry was controversial, not because Jesus loved controversies or that he sparked off controversies but because the people thought and acted differently from God’s ways of doing things and so Jesus could never agree with them; and that is where controversies begin – disagreements. So these so called controversies were not things that I sparked off, nor is it that I enjoy controversies. Then why was I silent? Because Jesus did not need to respond to his critics! So, I have found no reason to respond to them. One thing you need to know about your critics is this: no great man ever criticized a lesser man. respond because only lesser men criticize greater men.
You can only be criticized by those who are lesser than you. So the response to criticism should always be from that stand point. When you are criticized, you ask yourself, ‘Is this a criticism’. If it is, then you do not need to.
And that immediately suggests that the one who criticizes you deserves no response. That is the reason why I have not thought of responding to them.

How did your relationship with Prophet T.B Joshua begin? Rev Chris Okotie said then that T.B. Joshua recruited or ordained you into his cult way back 1986. 
I remember in 2001 a lot of ministers including Pastor Chris Okotie, Bishop Mike Okonkwo and Pastor Tunde Bakare did say things along that line. The truth is that they were all wrong. They were getting information from the wrong sources, and it is unfortunate that they believed their wrong sources; incidentally none of them asked me intelligent questions. I hope to write a book on the episode someday. I have so much to say about all that transpired, maybe for the future. It was an interesting period, but the truth is that what they said was not true. I was surprised when the fact that I related with Prophet T.B Joshua, sparked off controversies. I was very surprised. You wonder why? Because I related with a lot of folks and nobody said anything, so I wondered why they got so mad about this one.

This was no ordinary person. This was Prophet T.B. Joshua; a man whom most ministers believe is involved in occultic practices.
I was surprised that they all said that. Remember that Jesus visited non-followers, non believers and he was criticized by the religious folks of his day. They said this man eateth and drinketh with sinners. They said Jesus could not be a prophet of God because he ate and drank with sinners. I thought if I related with anybody, it shouldn’t be a problem, even if he was a sinner. There was no reason for that. After all everybody needs the gospel. So from that stand point I was surprised at their response. It was the wrong response anyway. I remember that I made a tape then, called ‘Truth on Trial’ and there I said, “Just because you hate somebody does not mean I have to hate with you”. When Jesus related with sinners, they did not change him. So, no matter what they thought T.B. Joshua was, my relating with him shouldn’t have been expected to change me. So, it was very wrong for anyone to have interfered.

They said he was of the devil… 
Well, that is between them and God.

How exactly did you meet T.B. Joshua? 
It was in 2001 that I met him or spoke with him for the first time, contrary to the assertions of the PFN leaders. He called me on the phone. He had been watching our programme on television with some of his visitors, and there was this episode of a little girl who was born blind, who received her sight at our crusade. He said he was moved by the miracle and decided to call me. That was our first contact. After that, we spoke several other times on telephone. At that time, I had only seen maybe two or three of his programmes on TV. I did not know much about him at all, and so when he spoke with me on the phone, we exchanged pleasantries, and made references to what we were doing. 
In the process of time, on a particular Wednesday, several weeks after we had been talking on the phone, he called me on the phone and requested that I joined him in ministering to a particular man that was coming from Holland, 
during a special service that night. I said we’ll be having a service and he said his service was going to be all night long. I was going to finish mine about 9 pm and his was going to be all night, so I said ‘alright, how long is it going to take me to get to where you are?’ He said it’s about 30 minutes, half an hour. I said ok, ‘if I get out of here around 9 o’ clock, I’ll be there by 9.30. I’ll try to make it’. I went there with several people.
We met for the first time, face to face then, and went into the congregation and he introduced me to them and I greeted the people. Of course a lot of them had been seeing me on television and so they were excited to see me come to their church. Shortly after I greeted them, I went with him to the healing section. We got to the healing section; he started out ministering to them while I was waiting because I was only going to join him in ministering to the foreigners based on his earlier request. When we got to the section where the foreigners were, most of whom were from Holland, we both ministered to the man who was sick of multiple sclerosis. I believe his name was Jan Westerhof; that was about it.
Now you must realize that before I met with T.B. Joshua, I’d been holding crusades and healing services for years. This was 2001 and by then I had held many crusades with thousands of people and we already had our programme, Atmosphere For Miracles, where we showed testimonies of people who were getting healed in our meetings. So healings and miracles were not new to me. When I met with him, of course I was excited, glad to see someone who was interested in the kind of things that I was doing. 
When these controversies came up, when these pastors, Pastor Chris Okotie, Bishop Mike Okonkwo and Pastor Tunde Bakare got on television and began to say a lot of things, I actually had to maintain an association of sympathy with the man. There are so many things I have to say like I told you, but these are all leaders in the church and I wouldn’t want to say things that would make them unhappy with themselves or even make members of their congregation unhappy with them. I do not think that is my responsibility. So I would not want to go into certain details.

Did you at any moment think that your detractors were right and you wrong? After all you were the only man on your side of the divide. 
I knew they were wrong all the time. Maybe I should define something, because the issue was not T.B. Joshua. They tried to make him the issue. He was not the issue. And I can prove that. The reason I said they tried to make him the issue is this; the president of the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria, PFN, became the Vice President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN, of which the Synagogue Church headed by T.B. Joshua is a part, Cherubim and Seraphim is a part, Celestial Church of Christ is a part and many other groups. In fact, he became the de facto Vice President of the Synagogue! And nobody said anything about it. There could be no better endorsement of T.B. Joshua from the PFN than that. If you could fraternize with all these groups as their Vice President, doesn’t that say something, if indeed any of them was really of the Devil? Imagine Paul the Apostle as the Vice President of an occultic group? The point is T.B. Joshua was not the problem. They used him as the reason for their actions which were based on their wrong spiritual perceptions.

Rev Okotie claimed that T.B. Joshua laid hands on you and ordained you into ministry. When a newsmagazine asked the Prophet a question along that line, his answer sounded ambiguous lending credence to Okotie’s assertion. So did T.B. Joshua lay hands on you?
The answer is No! That did not happen, I was never a part of his ministry as alleged by Chris Okotie and others. I was never a part of Synagogue. I met him for the first time in 2001. I have never been involved in their ministry and he has never had to minister to me. We have related as friends. I have many minister friends, even though we don’t all exactly believe the same things. 

What about the issue of money? Pastor Tunde Bakare said he saw a vision in which you were collecting money or deposit slips from T.B. Joshua and concluded you must have compromised for the sake of filthy lucre.
The allegations that he gave me money and that he was sponsoring our television programme doesn’t make sense, considering our financial status as a ministry. T.B. Joshua must have been flattered to hear that from Pastor Bakare. It was all false. 

There is this video tape featuring you and T.B. Joshua, healing a man from Holland in a wheelchair. A voice over referred to you as the Junior Prophet. Have you seen the tape?
(Laughs) Firstly, I have not seen the commercial or consumer version of the tape. But, I have a copy of the original edit that includes my whole visit and activities there. You know that as in several church organizations where they call the helmsman, Senior Pastor or General Overseer, T.B. Joshua is referred to as the Senior Prophet at the Synagogue. It’s unfortunate that the commentator was not corrected in his error or assumption that whoever was ministering with the Senior Prophet must therefore be the Junior Prophet. I know some of the foreigners, who were not in the main service when I addressed the congregation, could have thought so, because they were in the emergency section waiting for healing. I remember one of them in his testimony actually made that comment. 
Even though I was not offended, they should have been corrected.

Your liaison with T.B. Joshua caused a deep friction within Pentecostal circles and sparked off a crisis that many believed was going to destroy your ministry. How did you weather the storm?
You see, what many do not understand is this: the so called crisis period did not lead to anything. They were the ones that had a crisis. I was not in crisis, and this was what they did not understand. We have a firm bible based ministry. If a ministry like this could have been destroyed by things like this, that would have happened a very long time ago. So, I was not in crisis and did not need to weather the storm. I just went on with my business.

Were you not concerned about the status of your detractors? You were pitched against the Who is Who in Nigerian Pentecostal circles; especially considering the fact that men of God like Bishop Mike Okonkwo, and Pastor Adeboye of the Redeemed Church and even Matthew Ashimolowo made certain remarks about you then.
I did not mind. I was never bitter about it. They were all misled by their sources or assumptions. I have never met Pastor Ashimolowo or Pastor Adeboye. They don’t know me. Even though Pastor Adeboye granted us the use of the Redeemed Camp facilities twice, several years ago, for which we remain grateful, I’ve never met him. But, whatever their comments were, I leave it all to God. You see, I have been brought up strong in the word of God. I have walked with the Holy Spirit enough to know, like the Apostle Paul that none of these things move me.
And if you are successful, you expect people to come after you. If you amount to anything you should never be surprised when people criticize you. Never be surprised when people rise against you and condemn you. Jesus said we should not be amazed when they say all manner of evil against us and accuse us falsely. Jesus was accused falsely. If I have been accused falsely and criticized by people, it does not mean anything. I am in good company because Jesus and the apostles suffered the same things. But they were successful and so have I been and I’ll continue to be because I am walking in the path of light. So I already knew the end from the beginning.

Did you feel a sense of betrayal by those who were supposedly members of your primary constituency?
A sense of betrayal? They were not my primary constituency. That is the problem! I have never focused on them.

But they were also ministers.
That is what I am saying. I did not think about them. You see, God speaking to the children of Israel, said, “When I called Abraham, I called him alone”. You see prophets stand alone. When God calls you, he calls you alone. I only had Jesus in focus and always wanted to make sure that I did that, which would please him. I did not want to condemn them and I still would not say anything against them but that does not mean that what they said was the truth. It is still not true. Some people thought I was defending T.B. Joshua. No! I was defending the truth. All I said was, no matter what you think about him, treat him right. Period! Treat him the way Jesus said to treat people.

Did you ever get disturbed about the prospect of coming to church and finding your congregation has left? Some of the ministers advised them to leave you for the sake of their spiritual sanity.
(Laughs) Well I never even considered what they said. As a matter of fact, anybody can say anything. The question is, who was he speaking for? The bible says in Lamentation 3: 37, “who is it that speaketh and it cometh to pass when the Lord commanded it not”? No matter what anybody says, if God’s power is not in their words, the words are empty. So those were empty words, they did not come to pass; they did not work or produce results. I was sent by God and it was important for me to know who sent me, and it was also important for me to know what my mission was.

Your strategies for handling controversies and crisis are rather strange. While others are addressing press conferences and issuing press release, you maintain a stoic silence. Is it on purpose, like a special strategy? 
Well, not really. It is not on purpose. It is not planned. I am just doing what I was called to do. I do not think it is my responsibility to respond to issues that are raised by different people. I have a mission, I have a message to preach, and I am on television everyday. I have been given a unique opportunity, a very rare privilege from God. I do not know what more I could ask for. I have the opportunity to talk to millions of people around the world. I have been tremendously blessed and favoured. I can not ask for more. So in terms of having the opportunity or the platform to express myself, I have it more than any newspaper or media organization in this country could grant me. So the truth is: I have enough platform to say what I want to say. I have been tremendously favoured to be able to get on the electronic media on all formats, all around the world, hold crusades and do all the things I want to do! Our books and tapes are everywhere and so I’m just focused, doing the things I am called to do.

The world is all about relationships. As a journalist, I get to relate with other journalists. We hear of corroboration between other ministers as they hold joint programmes and preach in each other’s churches. But Pastor Chris doesn’t preach anywhere else but Christ Embassy, and he doesn’t have minister friends. People think you are proud.
(Laughs) Well, certain people think that until you relate with them particularly, you have not related with anybody. That is wrong. I have thousands of ministers in our ministry and that is more than enough to relate with. I relate with ministers regularly. 
I do not know what else I should be doing. And remember, the more ministers you relate with, the less time you’ll have to relate with God. So I think I have more than enough already, I am now trying to have ministers to relate to other ministers, so I can even relate less. That is it. The ministry is different from other businesses. You gave yourself as an example; as a journalist, you relate with other journalists, but the ministry is different. You need to relate more with the Holy Spirit than with anybody else.

Is that the reason you are not a member of the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria, PFN, or Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN?
PFN or CAN? You know sometimes people make some things seem more serious than they really are. The Christian Association of Nigeria is a great organization started by human beings. God did not say you must be in CAN to be able to function.

I think they are doing their job the best way they know how, but I do not know what their aims and objectives are, and I have a vision that is unique.
The Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria has its beliefs. I am not a Pentecostal and therefore don’t have to be a part of it. It’s like they are not Baptists, else, why did they not join the Baptist Fellowship of Nigeria? Why? We all believe in Jesus; why did they not join the Baptist? Because of their beliefs! So they feel they are different from the Baptists and there is nothing wrong with that. I think it depends on beliefs. I do not believe everything from the Pentecostal stand point, because there is nothing Pentecostal in Christianity.

The term Pentecostal denotes all those who believe in being born again, speaking in tongues…
That is wrong; It’s a misnomer. I know where it came from. It came from the fact that on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers in the upper room in Acts, chapter two. But the truth is that it came only on those who were not celebrating Pentecost! Those who were celebrating Pentecost where outside and did not receive the Holy Spirit. So, from the biblical point, the Pentecostals were those who did not receive the Holy Spirit the day the Holy Spirit came. Those who received the Holy Spirit were not celebrating Pentecost.

But the term ‘Pentecostal’ is generally accepted…
That is the problem. Many people prefer to do what is generally accepted instead of the truth. I think they have not done enough study on that subject and that is the reason; and of course don’t forget people would rather die with their names than change it. So I am not suggesting they change. I am just telling you why I am not a member of PFN, because for the same reason they are not members of the Baptist fellowship or the Anglican or Methodist. These are all Christians but they do not believe everything they do and I do not believe everything they do! Even beginning with their name, but I am not against them at all.

Aside healing, another cardinal aspect of your teaching is prosperity. And of course you cannot talk prosperity without talking about money; the love of which the bible says is the root of all evil. The problem with our nation today stems from the unbridled lust for acquisitions. Shouldn’t the church focus on holiness, self denial, and other subjects associated with traditional Christianity. 
Well, the church should not focus on any of those things. The church should focus on Jesus and his message and when they do that, they would talk about all these things because they concern man. The true message then will include self denial, holiness and righteousness, not as a pursuit but as a result. In talking about the issue of money, remember that people go to work seven days a week, many five days a week but a lot of them six to seven days a week. They go because of money. And Jesus talked a lot about money. If you do not teach people about money, then they would do the wrong things. The bible doesn’t say money is the root of all evil; it is the love of money. What about the stem, the branches of all evil? What about the fruit of all evil? No one is talking about that. After all, the root will not stay by itself. There are other things that are connected to evil; it is not only the love of money that is bad.

There are a lot of other things that are bad. Prosperity is important and we preach it, not because we want to talk about it, but because this is in the message of Jesus Christ. 

How old is Pastor Chris? There is a mystery surrounding your age; no birthday greetings in the papers carry your age.
Well I would say I am a bit fascinated by the media creation of a mystery because none of us created it. I went to schools, and so must have registered with my age declarations, I have a passport and my date of birth must be there. I have filled so many forms throughout this country. So for anybody to suggest that there is a mystery about my age seems mischievous. So I think I would rather leave it that way.

Will you like to solve the mystery for us?
No. It seems mischievous and ridiculous, but maybe I have enjoyed the mystery created by the media over the issue and would just let it be.

Watch out for the 2nd part of this interview.

About Post Author

Anthony-Claret Ifeanyi Onwutalobi

Anthony-Claret is a software Engineer, entrepreneur and the founder of Codewit INC. Mr. Claret publishes and manages the content on Codewit Word News website and associated websites. He's a writer, IT Expert, great administrator, technology enthusiast, social media lover and all around digital guy.
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